Stop repeating Bush alleged "atheists aren't citizens or patriots" "quote"

[EverLastingGodStopper]

Did he, or didn't he?

Did George H W Bush really say "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God"?

No one knows but George H W Bush and Rob Sherman. Bush isn't talking, and Sherman's story has changed over the years.

I came clean in another thread, expressing how it came to be that I began to doubt the veracity of this alleged quotation.

Here's what I wrote:

Before I finish reading, I have to say... Boy, do I feel bad. I gave you some bad information a few months ago, and there it is as the leading item in your piece. I'm sorry. I've been making a serious mistake by repeating that "Atheists as patriots" "quote" with my approval. I was mistaken.

Let me explain: I used to be one of those people who repeated the Rob Sherman story about the alleged Bush quote. Then I became deeply involved in the inner circles of the freethought movement. When I sent a message to my new group, referring to the Sherman story, I was immediately corrected by people who have been heavily involved in these people who have been involved in atheist activism for 20, 30, 40 years. They explained things to me that I can't even repeat in public. Let's just say that I was shown evidence which has caused me to believe that I was mistaken for the past few years about the veracity of the alleged Bush quote.

I really had no idea, and I regret not making a more public retraction of my support for Sherman's story.

So how did my mistake make it to your essay? It's my fault. In your original thread asking for info, I posted, on September 1, 2006:

That's a typical quickie reply from me, off the cuff.

I learned certain detailed background information, privately, over the next few weeks, but never mentioned it until October 20, 2006, when I mentioned in another thread:

The thread moved on, and I clarified my position:

That was the extent of my public retraction of a meme I was spreading for over 4 years, until now. I no longer believe the story; I have no reason to believe it.

I can't say more about it here. But you many of you IIDBers know me; you've heard me speak, or seen me, some of you have met me. You'll have to trust me when I say that we should all stop repeating Rob Sherman's story about the alleged George H W Bush anti-atheist quote.

I apologize that my 4-year lack of specific details led me to disinform you, and that my mistake is now in your essay.

I'm also sorry for the little derail, I'll post a separate reply later, about the rest of your piece.

-Janice

This quote is all over the internet. Sources that are otherwise reliable, such as Positive Atheism and even The Secular Web restate this alleged quotation with all the fervor of true believers. I did the same, for over 4 years, and didn't stop until 2 months ago, when I researched the story and surrounding circumstances in depth. The results of my personal investigation led me to believe that I had no reason to think that Bush really said these words.

I can't share all the details here, but I'm hoping that you can take my word for it. I am concerned about the truth, and there's no way to prove that the elder Bush ever made the anti-atheist statement that is attributed to him. There is a story about it, but no evidence to support the story.

I'm sorry that I didn't speak sooner. Over the next few weeks, if I get a chance, I'll try to contact my friends to ask them to add disclaimers to their webpages that repeat this alleged quote. Until we know for sure that it was said, we should not repeat it.

I don't often go around saying "atheists should" or "atheists should not" do things. I save the "shoulds" for very special circumstances, such as this one. Please rethink your support for spreading a story without proof that the story is true. Atheists should not rely on this alleged quotation as evidence that George H W Bush said an anti-atheist slur on the campaign trail in the late 1980s. I don't know if he said it or not, and neither do you.

[Malachi151]

This all seems very strange. I have no real concern for the quote one way or the other, but this reaction is quite odd, why all the "I can't share all the details here, but I'm hoping that you can take my word for it"?

What is there to explain and why can't anyone explain it?

Is there an original transcript for this?

[Mathew Goldstein]

Originally Posted by EverLastingGodStopper

Did he, or didn't he?

Did George H W Bush really say "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God"?

No one knows but George H W Bush and Rob Sherman. Bush isn't talking, and Sherman's story has changed other the years.

Bush Documents Published Regarding Bush's "Atheists Should Not Be Regarded as Citizens" Quote

I haven't looked at the documents, but if what they are saying is true then Rob Sherman is a big liar and I have no reason to believe that Rob Sherman is such a big liar. On the contrary, to the best of my knowledge Rob Sherman's reputation for honesty is very good.

[EverLastingGodStopper]

Originally Posted by Malachi151

This all seems very strange. I have no real concern for the quote one way or the other, but this reaction is quite odd, why all the "I can't share all the details here, but I'm hoping that you can take my word for it"?

What is there to explain and why can't anyone explain it?

Is there an original transcript for this?

I'm saying that reliable, knowledgeable activists, who I trust, have told me in confidence some things that I did not know about controversy surrounding this alleged statement. The things I learned in private are things I can't repeat. What I can repeat is that no one has any evidence to support the allegation that this incident (Bush saying these words to Sherman) took place.

[Malachi151]

So, Rob Sherman is sticking by his story and still claims that the quote is true, and on the other side we have a mystery claim that its not true?

Hmm....

[EverLastingGodStopper]

Originally Posted by Malachi151

So, Rob Sherman is sticking by his story and still claims that the quote is true, and on the other side we have a mystery claim that its not true?

Hmm....

I didn't say that the story was not true, I only said that I have no evidence to prove that the story is true. Therefore, the story is hearsay, until someone provides proof that the events occurred as described.

Those who have followed Sherman's website closely might have noticed that certain details about the story have been changed or removed over time. For example, for several years, the name of a possible witness to the event was on the site. The alleged witness was said to be a CNN reporter named Greg Lefevre. When asked directly in 2003, Greg Lefevre denied hearing Bush say the words that were attributed to him. The reporter's name was eventually removed from the webpages that described the story.

Also, Sherman claimed on his site that the Bush Library withheld the documents for two years. However, two other people, who I know, contacted the Bush Library and received the documents immediately. It does not take 2 years for such a request to be fulfilled.

[Toto]

Rob Sherman could have honestly thought that was something like what Bush said. GHW Bush did not unequivocably deny saying it (for whatever reasons) although the statement by his attorney that he would respect the Constitutional rights of atheists and others with whom he disagreed contradicts the idea that atheists cannot be patriots.

I don't see the correspondence on Rob Sherman's web site as clearly supporting his claim of what Bush said. It does support the claim that GHW Bush did not think very highly of the atheist (or Atheist?) vote.

In contrast, his son, the evangelical theocratic-lite GW Bush has always been careful to say that people of no faith can be good and patriotic, even while he appoints rabid Christian-jihadis to federal appointments and siphons off our tax dollars to churches.

[Malachi151]

Well I agree that this is enough not to put stock in it anymore, and to stop using it. I never really cared that much for it anyway, mostly because I didn't find it shocking, I just thought lots of people thought that way.

Thanks for the heads up ELGS.

[benjdm]

I would be soooooo happy if this quote was false.

[Nialler]

It sill strikes me as hearsay vesrus uncorroborated hearsay.

To be fair, there is nothing worse in public discourse than the "I've been told stuff but I can't repeat it" type of argument.

If you really have the goods, then you should preseuade your sources to be more open. In fact, it is practically a duty. If the story is untrue, then a man is being maligned. If there happens to be some verification for the story, then the issue remains open (and more open than a merely unconfirmed allegation; there is at least some verification of the story).