New beheading video - Paul Johnson.

[Nil Desperandum]

According to CNN, video of Paul Johnson's beheading has been released.

Although I cannot find any links to THAT video, here is a link to previous video:

Paul Johnson in Nightvision (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/06/15/saudi.tape/)

Edit: And then a senior member of the office comes to me and says, "That there is why genocide should be legal."

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Spike~]

This was the first post of the merged thread -- Rob aka Mediancat)

An American Christian living in Saudi Arabia for the past 10 years was taken hostage 3 days ago, and the terrorists demanded that other terrorists being held is Saudi be released, or they'ld kill him. We didn't release them...

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/06/18/saudi.kidnap/index.html

(CNN) -- An Arabic TV news network said Friday that American hostage Paul Johnson Jr. has been beheaded by his Saudi captors.
Al Arabiya said its bureau chief had been shown the video of the killing.

Earlier Friday, Al Arabiya had aired an emotional statement from the wife of Johnson.

Johnson's wife, Noom, who is Thai, said she hoped the Saudi government "can help my husband."

U.S. and Saudi investigators concluded an intensive meeting Friday, Saudi officials said, as security forces spread all over the kingdom searching for Johnson.

Johnson, 49, a Lockheed Martin Corp. employee, had been kidnapped Saturday in the Saudi capital of Riyadh. He helped maintain U.S.-built Apache helicopter gunships for the Saudi military.

Johnson's captors had threatened to kill him by Friday unless the Saudi government releases al Qaeda prisoners and Westerners leave the Arabian Peninsula.

Abdel Aziz al-Muqrin , the self-proclaimed military leader of al Qaeda in Saudi Arabia, claimed responsibility for Johnson's kidnapping and the death of another American on the same day on behalf of a group called the Al Falluja Squadron, which says it has ties to al Qaeda.

The State Department has urged all Americans to leave Saudi Arabia, but Johnson's sister, Donna Mayeux, said her brother "always felt safe in Saudi Arabia."

"My brother is an honorable man," she said. "He has always treated people with dignity and respect."

[kaelcarp]

An American Christian living in Saudi Arabia for the past 10 years was taken hostage 3 days ago, and the terrorists demanded that other terrorists being held is Saudi be released, or they'ld kill him. We didn't release them...

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/06/18/saudi.kidnap/index.html

This isn't going to end anytime in the foreseeable future. What a mess.

[Answerer]

Not unexpected of those bastards. I'm just wondering who will be the next.......................... ( Rumfeld maybe)

[Space Chef]

"Jesus motherfucking christ! Another one?! What the fuck..."

- what I said aloud when I read the thread title.

Hey, humanity, I have a favor to ask: could you stop being so shitty for, like, one day?

[Sakpo]

The Lounge? Have you read the forum descriptions? Anyway, I consider this sad news. Executing a captive shows a complete lack of dignity and honor on the part of the captors/killers. It is my understanding that this fellow was living abroad and performing work directly aiding the war effort in Iraq, and as such, despite being a civilian, on some level I could see him being a legitimate target for attack... but certainly not for abduction and beheading. His family must be going through hell (as they must have been since this mess started). It is also quite pathetic that any condemnation of this by the US government will be legitimately derided as hypocrisy by many non Americans. I hope his killers will soon find what they deserve.

[HaysooChreesto!]

Do they think that things like this are going to win them support from anyone?

We have to fight a pr battle and so do they. By beheading helpless prisoners they do more harm to themselves than good. Also, the shock effect wears off rather quickly. By the time they start lopping domes off on a monthly basis it will be a footnote in major newspapers.

And these cavemen want to run a country? They want to have a say in international affairs and be taken seriously? How... how reptilian.

[Born Free]

This is sickening and abhorrent, I can't believe it. :(

[Mr. Superbad]

That part of the world is screwed up, but this shouldn't surprise anyone. It's been going on forever in Chechnya. Hell, some of our "allies" in that part of the world still behead people in the streets (http://www.guardian.co.uk/rightsindex/Story/0,2763,201759,00.html), and I'm pretty sure they don't have the most reliable justice system. I remember two dumbass DJ's on the radio joking about it a couple years back.

[Free Thinkr]

Edit: And then a senior member of the office comes to me and says, "That there is why genocide should be legal."

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
And this is proof mankind is doomed to a hell of its own stupidity. :(

[Ellis14]

Doesn't belong in the Lounge...

[Rhaedas]

And then a senior member of the office comes to me and says, "That there is why genocide should be legal."

Because it's that there whole race of people that's the problem, not just a small group of extremists. If it ain't 'merican...

I join the :banghead: with you. If there was just some way to get the two sides together on some deserted island, and let them do whatever eye for an eye they want to each other, and let the rest of us try and get the real world problems resolved...but no, it's a constant "he started it, and I'll finish it" mentality.

I wonder if this will be the last century of mankind sometimes...

[Underseer]

Because it's that there whole race of people that's the problem, not just a small group of extremists. If it ain't 'merican...
But remember, when it comes to the torture and murder of prisoners, the conservofascists expect the world to understand that this is "just a few bad apples" and that all of America should not be judged by their actions.

[Aeron]

rhaedas, sometimes i HOPE this will be the last century of mankind. I think i should feel worse for saying that, but its really pretty much numbness at this point. I am perfectly willing to accept that it was only a small group of extremists that performed this/these beheadings - fine. America is not squeaky clean either, but this kind of stuff can not be accepted by the populace. When does human decency supercede rage as the M.O of policy.

I am not expecting them to put P.O.W.s up in the ritz carlton or anything, but at least treat them with respect and dignity.

/this applies equally to our treatment of their prisoners, not a few of which have "disappeared."

[Rhaedas]

Let me clarify, I think there's guilt on all sides, and I would hope that the general Islamic population, even though I realize and can understand their distaste of America's past and current actions, would view this kind of barbarism for what it is, and condemn it. Just as I wish some Americans would take their patriotic heads out of the sand, and try and see how our treatment of the POWs, er, I mean guests from abroad, could be seen as shameful from their religious/cultural point of view. Redefining the U.S. understanding of the Geneva Treaty won't make the crimes disappear.

I hate that people are brutally dying like this, but damn, when you play with fire*...

* Referring to the general U.S. involvement for years in that area...they should have known it would blow up in our face one day.

[scaramouche]

According to CNN, video of Paul Johnson's beheading has been released.

Although I cannot find any links to THAT video, here is a link to previous video:

Paul Johnson in Nightvision (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/06/15/saudi.tape/)

Edit: And then a senior member of the office comes to me and says, "That there is why genocide should be legal."

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Here are some still pics (http://drudgereport.com/jp.htm)

:banghead:

[LeftwingPitbull]

Bush will use this as propaganda again.

[Little Sister]

"Jesus motherfucking christ! Another one?! What the fuck..."

- what I said aloud when I read the thread title.

Hey, humanity, I have a favor to ask: could you stop being so shitty for, like, one day?
I know how you feel, but I shudder to call these sheeple "humanity". More like the dregs- the reduction- the ones that already sold their soul to a sky fairy and willing to now kill for it.
I heard a report that Paul wanted to convert to Islam?? It's sad that some extremists saw him worth more dead, than alive and faithful.
I can't believe what people are willing to do. It's revolting.

[halcyon_daze]

I saw another report where at first they thought there was a video, but then it appears that there are only still photos. Makes no difference of course, it's still appalling. I wonder if they gave him the "Abu Ghraib treatment" like they threatened to, or just killed him?

[dannyk]

How many people did Saudi Arabia behead last year ??

Graeme

[Mr. Superbad]

How many people did Saudi Arabia behead last year ??

According to this (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/latestnewsstory.cfm?storyID=3567036&thesection=news&thesubsection=world) six people have been publicly beheaded this year.

[reprise]

I wonder how long it will be before this kind of "retribution" starts spreading to the more moderate Muslim nations.

[scaramouche]

I wonder how long it will be before this kind of "retribution" starts spreading to the more moderate Muslim nations.


Hope not, that is a very frightening thought

[Cojana]

[removed]

[JerriEllijay]

Not sure what forum this needs to go on, all I know is I am sickened by another beheading. And they got their beards in a wad over dog collars......sigh...... :(

[external solipsism]

Is anyone disturbed by the fact that these two beheadings both have surfaced immediately after rather damaging information hits the press?

[reprise]

Is anyone disturbed by the fact that these two beheadings both have surfaced immediately after rather damaging information hits the press?

The Johnson kidnapping has been in the media throughout the week, and the deadline was always set for Friday.

[eldar1011]

getting shocked at what those insidious sacks O shit do, are not going to fix anything, find a family of terrorist, behead the mother,father,and all children,take pictures and send them to the terrorist's and warn them the rest of thier sack O shit families are due for the same, fuck morality, kill as they kill,its the only thing they understand, fight terror with worse terror,!! :mad: :mad: :eek:

I'm sure you're just letting your emotions get away with you with this response. But, realistically, this doesn't seem like it'd be a good idea.

After all, no matter how many beheadings these terrorists inflict on Americans, our foreign policy is unlikely to change. Troops are not going to be withdrawn from Iraq. Terrorist demands will not be met.

That being said, what makes you think it'd work on them if it wouldn't work on us?

[Nil Desperandum]

Is anyone disturbed by the fact that these two beheadings both have surfaced immediately after rather damaging information hits the press?

The beheading was forthcoming. We got a 72 hour deadline, went past it, and he was beheaded. So, the fact he lost his head wasn't much of a shock. As a matter of fact it isn't that disturbing at all that someone else was held captive, and subsequently beheaded.

HOWEVER, the REASONS behind it, as with all Shrub Admin actions, are very, very open to suspect.

Chris

Edit: AGain to add: Bush reminds us that "this shows the nature of the enemy. These people..." (on CNN, right now). I'm reminded again of the bad apples in the US Army... :rolleyes:

[Nil Desperandum]

Not sure what forum this needs to go on, all I know is I am sickened by another beheading. And they got their beards in a wad over dog collars......sigh...... :(

That's utter bullshit, because torture and death of this magnitude are NOT justified, regardless of how much "worse" the other people are.

:mad:

[reprise]

I'm sure you're just letting your emotions get away with you with this response. But, realistically, this doesn't seem like it'd be a good idea.

After all, no matter how many beheadings these terrorists inflict on Americans, our foreign policy is unlikely to change. Troops are not going to be withdrawn from Iraq. Terrorist demands will not be met.

That being said, what makes you think it'd work on them if it wouldn't work on us?

These particular demands were being made of the Saudis, not the US. As has been pointed out before, KSA is particularly vulnerable to the impact of violence against foreign workers as foreign workers play a large part in maintaining the kingdom's infrastructure.

[flintknapper]

Spreading this method of execution is exactly what they want to do. First Daniel Pearl, then Nick Berg. The perps that did Nick Berg read in Arabic a message that instructed Muslims to follow their lead and use beheading as a means of executing infidels.
However, from the looks of this last set of pics, (Johnson) it would be hard convincing me that he was alive when he was beheaded. There is simply not enough blood. That is also what I thought about the Berg beheading. The terrorists aren't stupid. Why try and wrestle a struggling hostage and get soaked with blood from head to toe? The pics are for propaganda, and by showing the severed head, they accomplish their goal of terrorizing, regardless of whether the hostage was alive or dead at the time of the beheading.
Here is a photo of a beheading (http://www.ogrish.com/view_attachment.php?id=19370) in progress. WARNING:extremely graphic!
Note the pressure the blood is under, and how the executioner is scrambling to get out of the way of the spray. Cutting a persons head off while alive and holding them down would literally be a blood bath. My 2-cents.

Edit: If that link doesn't work, got to this link (http://www.ogrish.com/) and scroll all the way down the page to 'beheading in progress', which is the fourth from the bottom. Pic 1 is what I was trying to link.

[Little Sister]

Cheney said:
"They have no shame, not a shred of decency, and no mercy. America will hunt down the killers, one by one, and destroy them."

:rolleyes: Ummmm, yeah. Just like they did with Osama??

Who do they have looking for the killers, OJ?

[reprise]

I find it extremely disturbing that the Saudi people were reluctant to co-operate with attempts to locate Johnson. It's one thing when the population of a nation you've invaded is reluctant to co-operate with you. It's another thing entirely when the nation concerned in an ally.

[Hedwig]

PD.

--Hedwig,
M&PC Mod

[reprise]

Johnson's captors had threatened to kill him by Friday unless the Saudi government releases al Qaeda prisoners and Westerners leave the Arabian Peninsula.

Releasing the prisoners wouldn't have made any difference, given the impossibility of meeting their other demand - that all Westerners leave the Arabian Peninsula.

[Mediancat]

Two threads on the topic have now been merged.

Rob aka Mediancat

[arricchio]

More blood for Allah the Butcher, the most bloodthirsty god ever created by human depravity. Makes me glad I'm an athiest. At least I know I'll never be deprived of my reason and my humanity.

[John the Non-Baptist]

Cheney said:


:rolleyes: Ummmm, yeah. Just like they did with Osama??

Who do they have looking for the killers, OJ?

No, OJ's busy heading up the investigation into who leaked the name of the CIA operative.

[Stormlight]

Makes me glad I'm an athiest. At least I know I'll never be deprived of my reason and my humanity.
Indeed, an excellent, excellent point.

[eldar1011]

These particular demands were being made of the Saudis, not the US. As has been pointed out before, KSA is particularly vulnerable to the impact of violence against foreign workers as foreign workers play a large part in maintaining the kingdom's infrastructure.

Thank you for the point of clarification. I guess the point I was trying to make is that the retribution suggested by Cojana would not cow the terrorists at all and would not be a successful deterrent.

[reprise]

More blood for Allah the Butcher, the most bloodthirsty god ever created by human depravity. Makes me glad I'm an athiest. At least I know I'll never be deprived of my reason and my humanity.

To be honest, I think there are probably just as many atheists as Islamists who would like to see the House of Saud fall from power.

[dragoon]

The savage and brutal method of killing these last two kidnap victims calls forth my deepest disgust and distain for the Abrahamic cultures that demand that every stain of hurt or dishonor be washed away in blood.

What those savages did to Johnson and Berg is revolting, but isn't what our people, with our weapons and prisons, have recently done and are doing to Arab and Muslim men, women and children (even if not intended) also savage in the extreme? Haven't uncounted (literally and figuratively) numbers of Muslims been dismembered and indeed decapitated by our savage weapons?

It started in earnest on Sept. 11, 2001 and Afghanistan should have been the proper response, but no. Somehow Abrahamic vengeance was not satiated with Afghanistan alone, our “leaders“ had to go after bigger Muslim fish. Now I wonder if we'll see the entire oil supply of the Mideast and beyond in turmoil and perhaps a concerted effort made, at any cost, to deny it to the West?

This latest example of savage behavior makes me puke, but it's so inevitable.

[reprise]

If an election were held in Saudi Arabia today, if anyone who wanted to could run for the office of president, and if people could vote their hearts without fear of having their heads cut off afterward in Chop-Chop Square, Osama bin Laden would be elected in a landslide--not because the Saudi people want to wash their hands in the blood of the dead of September 11, but simply because bin Laden has dared to do what even the mighty United States of America won't do: stand up to the thieves who rule the country.

The fall of the House of Saud (http://foi.missouri.edu/evolvingissues/fallhouseofsaud.html)

[Onager]

If everyone was as apathetic as I am, we wouldn't even be having this war in the first place. So let's have a little less caring around here, folks. It's the only way to break the chain.

[Little Sister]

Berg and Pearl were Jewish. Paul Johnson was considering converting to Islam. (I don't know what his faith was before.)

Does this mean anything, or did it not matter as long as they were American?

Or... am I only hearing about Berg, Pearl and Johnson because they WERE American, and there were others that didn't make American media?

[reprise]

Berg and Pearl were Jewish. Paul Johnson was considering converting to Islam. (I don't know what his faith was before.)

Does this mean anything, or did it not matter as long as they were American?

Or... am I only hearing about Berg, Pearl and Johnson because they WERE American, and there were others that didn't make American media?

An Italian hostage was executed in April.

[reprise]

Unconfirmed reports that the leader of the group thought to be responsible for Johnson's execution has been killed are starting to appear on the news wires (http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/8959013.htm).

[Gregg]

Do they think that things like this are going to win them support from anyone?You betcha (http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/8949539.htm)!

But residents of three Islamic fundamentalist districts in Riyadh, interviewed before news broke of Johnson's killing, suggested that the kidnappers enjoyed popular support, partly because of U.S. policy in Iraq and its perceived backing for Israel.

"How can we inform on our brothers when we see all these pictures coming from Abu Ghraib and Rafah," Muklas Nawaf told The Associated Press as he ate meat grilled on a spit at a restaurant called Jihad, or holy war in Arabic.

He was referring to the pictures of Iraqis abused by U.S. soldiers at the Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad and Israeli military incursions and killings in the Gaza refugee camp of Rafah.

"This is not a little skirmish. It is a war," Nawaf said.

A man who was shopping with his family in Sweidi, an Islamic fundamentalist district of the capital, agreed.

"These (kidnappers) are holy warriors, heroes, who never waver, even if they will fail," Mizahen al-Etbi told the AP. "All Saudis hate Americans, not only these heroes."

[Happy Wonderer]

Confirmed, apparently they got the bastards. Although I do not like the Saudi government very much, in this case their police force is to be congratulated. This is how you solve stuff like this, police work and not bombs.

Good work. (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5461088)


Arabiya's Saudi correspondent said the Interior ministry had confirmed Muqrin's death and that another militant had been arrested. The television said Muqrin was killed in the Malazz district of Riyadh shortly after his group beheaded U.S. engineer Paul Johnson when the Saudi government failed to meet a Friday deadline to release jailed militants.


hw

[reprise]

Do they think that things like this are going to win them support from anyone?

Absolutely. The people of the kingdom of Saudi Arabia have no means to remove the House of Saud from power. If terrorism leads to a significant portion of the foreign workforce leaving Saudi Arabia, it becomes increasingly difficult for the House of Saud to maintain its iron grip as the infrastructure falls apart.

[Autonemesis]

And they got their beards in a wad over dog collars......sigh...... :(

Oh please. The outcry over the prison abuses came from the Western world. We should expect better of ourselves than that, and many of us do.

[sakrilege]

Not sure what forum this needs to go on, all I know is I am sickened by another beheading. And they got their beards in a wad over dog collars......sigh...... :( What many Americans don't recognize is the linking of the Israel conflict with the Iraqi situation in the Arab world, many Palestinians are killed each week so the killing of one American pales in comparison.

[dragoon]

This is how you solve stuff like this, police work and not bombs.


Amen, amen!!

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

Well said.

[Shrubageddon]

What many Americans don't recognize is the linking of the Israel conflict with the Iraqi situation in the Arab world, many Palestinians are killed each week so the killing of one American pales in comparison.


Exactly! People are so easily lead around by the nose via the mainstream media. Can't you all see? The Mainstream Media has formed your opinion for you by choosing what to cover and investigate. Take your sheep skin off and quit biting.

On a broader note, the U.S. intends for the House of Saud to fall at this point. There is nothing they want more. It would be ample reason for the U.S. to march in and bring stability (that's a gas, isn't it). So, Reprise, you best be careful what you wish for. Once we control the world's oil reserves, you'll be sucking every square inch of our asses. I , for one, don't care to have my ass sucked, butt, I'm a rare exception to the rule in these parts.

[Miss_Fit]

I'm sorry, call me paranoid, but the Saudi police find both the body and the perp within two hours? Why couldn't they find Johnson BEFORE he was killed? Cui Bono?

[shome42]

On a broader note, the U.S. intends for the House of Saud to fall at this point. There is nothing they want more. It would be ample reason for the U.S. to march in and bring stability (that's a gas, isn't it).

Was that a joke?

I doubt the U.S. wants to take over Saudi Arabia, THE holy land for Islam, with our forces that are already stretched thin. If the House of Saud fell, it would be a disaster.

[shome42]

That part of the world is screwed up, but this shouldn't surprise anyone. It's been going on forever in Chechnya. Hell, some of our "allies" in that part of the world still behead people in the streets (http://www.guardian.co.uk/rightsindex/Story/0,2763,201759,00.html), and I'm pretty sure they don't have the most reliable justice system. I remember two dumbass DJ's on the radio joking about it a couple years back.

Agreed, that part of the world is screwed up, and my first reaction is to condescendingly call them savages...but it's worth noting that in America, we also execute hundreds with a less than reliable justice system. Saudi Arabia chops people's heads off in the streets and is more likely to execute foreigners. We inject people with poison in front of a small, intimate audience and we're more likely to execute blacks and mexicans.

America still has some improving to do before it can throw stones.

[AdamWho]

I wish they would use an ax or something big so they didn't have to saw of his head with that little steak knife.

[Space Chef]

I wish they would use an ax or something big so they didn't have to saw of his head with that little steak knife.

Agreed. Use a fucking katana or something!

[Ihatecheese]

The murder of innocents in warfare is a given, it sucks when its one of ours but it is still a given. That said these dumb fucks seem incapable of gauging the reaction to their grand plans. The brutality is having one direct result , resolve in the west, outrage in the west and cries for revenge in the west.
Still I hope the Saudis get them, nothing like a Troubled Islamic regime to put on a brutal show

[halcyon_daze]

Confirmed, apparently they got the bastards.

Or not.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-06-19-militant-denial_x.htm

A message posted on an Islamic militant Web site Saturday denied that the leader of the al-Qaeda cell in Saudi Arabia had been killed.

Abdulaziz al-Moqrin had purportedly overseen the kinapping of Paul M. Johnson, the American whose decapitated body was found on Friday in Riyadh. Saudi officials claimed al-Moqrin, the reputed leader of the group calling itself al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, was killed in a shootout after Johnson's body was found.

"Some satellite networks and news agencies have been propagating the false news that Abdel Aziz al-Moqrin, God preserve him, has been killed," the statement said. "We would like to say that such claims, unleashed by the tyrants of Saudi Arabia, are aimed at dissuading the holy warriors and crushing their spirits."

Things that make you go "hmmm".

[pistonhips]

Yanks keep getting their heads taken off.

Brainless fuckin' monkey boy keeps proclaiming how much safer the world is.

If a fat fuckin' piece of arrogant shit strolled into my country looking to profit by maintaining the helicopters that were used to illegally invade my country and kill innocents, I too would want to lop the brainless cunt's head off.

And yanks keep on bleating, unable to comprehend what the fuck is going on...

[Ihatecheese]

Yanks keep getting their heads taken off.

Brainless fuckin' monkey boy keeps proclaiming how much safer the world is.

If a fat fuckin' piece of arrogant shit strolled into my country looking to profit by maintaining the helicopters that were used to illegally invade my country and kill innocents, I too would want to lop the brainless cunt's head off.

And yanks keep on bleating, unable to comprehend what the fuck is going on...

Um thats 2 heads but WHOA on the miscomprehension. Now is your turn to explain how the US is bleating and what it is we dont understand. Bet you cun't

[crocodile deathroll]

Another very graphic reason why religious fanatics make me sick
http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/cwm/3dlil/puke.gif

CDR

[reprise]

The murder of innocents in warfare is a given, it sucks when its one of ours but it is still a given. That said these dumb fucks seem incapable of gauging the reaction to their grand plans. The brutality is having one direct result , resolve in the west, outrage in the west and cries for revenge in the west.
Still I hope the Saudis get them, nothing like a Troubled Islamic regime to put on a brutal show

So the US is at war with Saudi Arabia now?

This whole clusterfuck is getting more 1984 by the minute.

If Islam is the problem, then perhaps you'd like to explain why the KSA is still a US ally. They do have that whole Sharia law thing going there, in case you weren't paying attention.

Osama bin Laden has never once underestimated Western reaction to the actions of the groups which were under his direct control and those which now claim alliance with al-Qaeda. He understands the American psyche very well. Either the US continues to support the House of Saud, or it finally withdraws its support and pays the economic price of 20% of the world's oil reserves being taken out of play. It's a win-win situation for al-Qaeda either way. If we ignore the human cost, then they are playing the ultimate game of strategy and they've pretty much brought the game to a "check-mate" situation. You have to admire the strategy, if not the methods of its execution. I'd say that al-Qaeda is way more on target for achieving its objectives than is the US right now, and with much lesser resources at its disposal.

[Ihatecheese]

I never implied Saudi arabia was at war with the USA, next time read. Please advise where I claim Islam is the problem, next time read. But I have to pull the OSAMA never under estimated western reaction thing you have going little guy. WHERE IS THE PROVISIONAL COUNCIL of Afghanistan. chuckle chuckle

[reprise]

I never implied Saudi arabia was at war with the USA, next time read. Please advise where I claim Islam is the problem, next time read. But I have to pull the OSAMA never under estimated western reaction thing you have going little guy. WHERE IS THE PROVISIONAL COUNCIL of Afghanistan. chuckle chuckle

Bush is Osama bin Laden's wet-dream. The US was actually starting to take a more isolationist foreign policy stance until 11 September, 2001. If you think that al-Qaeda's actions on that day weren't designed to elicit precisely the reaction which they got, then I think you're the person who is being naive. For a lousy half a million dollars - by the estimates of the US Senate's own investigative panel - bin Laden has managed to draw the US into conflicts which will not only cost the US BILLIONS but which are politically "unwinnable", and economically unsustainable. Seems like a pretty good investment to me.

[JerriEllijay]

That's utter bullshit, because torture and death of this magnitude are NOT justified, regardless of how much "worse" the other people are.

:mad:

Nils - I obviously did not state myself well - there is no way their acts can ever be justified. I just shake my head at the things they do in the name of "Allah"

[Answerer]

so they didn't have to saw of his head with that little steak knife.


Well, thats the idea. Those bastards want the man to scream (loudly) :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Do they think that things like this are going to win them support from anyone?

But somehow the number of terrorists just keep on increasing despite the be-headings, go ponder.

Fighting terror with more terror will never work, it just hastens whole entire annihilation process.

[Amen-Moses]

Just a couple of points:

1) The "little steak knife" is a religious implement and is razor sharp, it's use is intentional (see 2).

2) The whole beheading thing is a reference to the crusades. Because they knew that Islam requires that the body be buried whole within 24 hours of death the crusaders beheaded everyone in a town when they took it and put their heads on stakes around the walls, medieval "shock and awe". (well the men and children anyhow, they raped the women for a few days first)

I doubt whether we would be seeing any of this had not shit-fer-brains declared that he was on a religious crusade!

Interestingly I can see method behind the "madness", it is no good attacking soldiers and mercenaries anymore because for one thing they aren't smart enough to be "shocked" or "awed" and for another the news isn't getting back to the west anyhow, even the BBC has relegated such items to sub pages on their web site. Industrial personnel otoh, especially those working in the high tech industries will bug out real quick if they think they may be targets (when you are already highly paid no amount of "danger" money is enough) and there is little risk of such people not making headlines.

This is fitting with the same pattern set by the IRA, when military targets became passe and the politicians started travelling around with small armies the IRA turned to defence industry targets (and Horses of course, that really made the front page). When that becomes passe you can expect to see shopping malls being blown up.

Amen-Moses

[halcyon_daze]

Some people think this sort of thing tends to rally people around the general cause for Bush's jihad on terror, others think that because the American electorate is already so polarized that this sort of thing only contributes to declining support for Bush. You decide. Here's an article inclined towards the latter.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=533087

With each new beheading, the political mood has shifted. When the Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl was abducted in Karachi two-and-a-half years ago, it gave rise to a sense of national, even international solidarity. There was nothing divisive or controversial about the mourning that greeted news of his death. Indeed, his family has gone on to set up a foundation in his name to promote cross-cultural understanding that enjoys universal admiration.

The case of Nicholas Berg, the 26-year-old from Pennsylvania abducted and killed in Iraq just last month, was very different. There was the question of how exactly he had come to grief, with his family alleging he had been in US custody and that the FBI somehow put him in the path of danger on his release. And there was the anger of his father, Michael Berg, who said unequivocally: "My son died for the sins of George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld."

...

It would be wrong to believe that the rest of the United States shares Michael Berg's outlook. Rather, his anger has underscored the deep polarisation in American politics between those who have come to loathe the Bush administration and those determined to defend its every action. And it remains to be seen whether Mr Johnson's death provokes anger against the administration or rather cries for revenge against his butchers.

Still, the overall mood is slipping away from the President. Two recent polls show that a majority believe the war against Saddam Hussein was not worth it. The Abu Ghraib torture scandal remains incendiary. And the recent traumatic events in Saudi Arabia - the siege of a residential compound in the oil town of al-Khobar last month, the shootings of Americans and other Westerners, and now the grisly fate of Mr Johnson - have raised anxious questions about the direction of US foreign policy and its ostensible goal of diminishing the terrorist threat.

Yesterday, a Washington Post article was headlined: "Is al-Qa'ida winning in Saudi Arabia?" It was just such questions about America's enemies that led President Johnson to his "Cronkite moment" in 1968 - his realisation that he could no longer count on the support of the country's favourite television news anchor, Walter Cronkite, and that he had therefore lost the sympathy of the electorate as a whole.

[halcyon_daze]

O.K. he's dead. The world's better off.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-06-19-al-qaeda_x.htm

The al-Qaeda cell in Saudi Arabia confirmed Sunday that its leader, Abdulaziz al-Moqrin, and three other militants were killed in a shootout with Saudi forces in Riyadh the night before.

[yanra]

How barbaric these terrorists are. Hard to believe there are people still out there who can do these things so nonchalantly. They are evil people.

[Ihatecheese]

Bush is Osama bin Laden's wet-dream. The US was actually starting to take a more isolationist foreign policy stance until 11 September, 2001. If you think that al-Qaeda's actions on that day weren't designed to elicit precisely the reaction which they got, then I think you're the person who is being naive. For a lousy half a million dollars - by the estimates of the US Senate's own investigative panel - bin Laden has managed to draw the US into conflicts which will not only cost the US BILLIONS but which are politically "unwinnable", and economically unsustainable. Seems like a pretty good investment to me.


I would be hard pressed to believe GWB goes to bed at night thankful for 911 let alone tossing off. I doubt Bin Laden had any idea how effective this operation was going to turn out. From a military perspective a more scaled operation that allowed continued operations would be preferable. That said for a singular attack this is the most successful military operation in history.

[Shrubageddon]

Was that a joke?

I doubt the U.S. wants to take over Saudi Arabia, THE holy land for Islam, with our forces that are already stretched thin. If the House of Saud fell, it would be a disaster.


Nope. It's not a joke. In fact, you're asking the wrong person that question. Me thinks you should be asking Bush and his Cronies that question, because their whole campaign in the region seems to point in this direction.

From an objective view, Bushco's actions appear insane to me. I surmize that they have access to information the general public does not. Information that rationalizes the insanity of their actions we are witnessing. Perhaps Cheney's Energy Task Force Transcripts would shed some light, but you can be sure that said transcripts will never see the light of day.

[Sharon357]

Here are some still pics (http://drudgereport.com/jp.htm)

:banghead:


(page includes four of the beheadings/gif format of Daniel Pearl, Nick Berg, Paul Johnson color cleaned up -- and Kim Sun. Terrorist message snipped... takes awhile to download because they're large files). I haven't seen any live video of Paul Johnson's beheading -- and really don't care if I ever do. These acts were the lowest form of barbaric savagery.

http://www.patriotica.org/nick-berg.html

My view on the America's Middle East War on Terror
by Edward T. Babinski
June 29, 2004

All wars are gambles, you gamble with the hundreds of billions spent on war, and with the lives of soldiers. America is greatly in debt because of the war on terror. We could have defended our nation and heightened survaillance on terrorists/terrorism, and spent American finances on things that do not simply go "boom," i.e., we could have spent more money on developing alternative energy resources that could have helped ease our dependance on foreign oil. Instead, we bombed the hell out of two countries, further destroying their already fragile infra-structure, now we will have to spend billions more trying to build them back up and support their new governments. Afghanistan remains divided up into warlord territories, and is growing more poppies/opium than ever before. Iraq's levels of electrical power are no greater than they were before the war, factions are arising, and Iran, Iraq's neighbor, is making friendly overtures, trying to tilt things in Iraq more heavily toward Iran's conservative Islamic view. As I see things, Bush's retroactive war on terror was not a heavenly mandate, but an enormous unwise gamble. We'll see how things develop. But the odds are not in favor of any low-industrialized nation with millions of poor people, lacking rich soil and plentious water, like Afghanistan and Iraq, becoming a shining beacon of truth, democracy and consumerism, like the U.S., not anytime soon. Democracy in America is like big time entertainment, months of speeches, commercials. Then every four years they announce the "new fall lineup." What nation can truly be like us? Even Europe has grown very socialistic. Meanwhile, America risks breaking our own financial back with these foreign wars, which risks throwing the entire world-wide scheme of commerce out of whack. I do however, foresee a growth in the arms industry as a result of these wars, and more time, energy and money wasted on 'things that go boom," coupled with deliciously heady rhetoric about high ideals, even religious ideals, as the military industrialists and oil barrons stuff wads of cash in their pockets.