Skeptical thinking about Paganism and New Age ideas

[Polar Bear]

Can anyone recommend a resource (website, book, etc.) highlighting skeptical/atheist critiques of paganism?

I'm more interested in critiques of Wicca/witchcraft specifically than anything to do with New Age stuff in general.

Thanks!

[muon]

Get a copy of these books by Ronald Hutton:

The Triumph of the Moon -- history of Wicca and neo-paganism
The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles -- title should be self-explanatory

Hutton is a serious historian and excellent writer. Ironically enough, I cannot determine his religious beliefs from his books---rumor is he's a pagan sympathizer, but certainly he calls a spade a spade.

[Polar Bear]

These sound like they would be excellent background books on the topic, but are they <i>critical?</i> In other words, do they address the veracity of pagan claims?

[Eudaimonist]

What sort of critiques are you looking for?

You could try <a href="http://www.csicop.org/" target="_blank">Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal</a> if you are looking for critiques of claims of supernatural powers.

[Polar Bear]

The same sort of critiques that one finds of Christian claims of supernatural experience, I suppose.

The reason I ask is, I have several friends who are sharp enough to be wary of Christian claims of the supernatural, but are totally taken in by similar pagan/New Age claims (foretelling the future, contacting "goddesses," magic rituals influencing the future, etc.).

[Mediancat]

I've had a number of pagan friends, and to a woman, none of them were in the least interested in converting me, in discussing their or my beliefs if I wasn't interested, or in trying to convince me that their Goddess was an awesome Goddess, or even in convincing me that the powers were real.

In other words, they don't really cause a whole lot of trouble and they don't proselytize.

So I don't worry about them. My personal goal as an atheist is to be left alone to practice as I wish, not to convince all the believers that they're being foolish if they disagree with me. And pagans leave me alone, so I leave them alone.

If you want to take on the individual claims, though, of telepathy, clairvoyance, and thingsl ike that, there are a number of resources -- look for books by James Randi, Henry Gordon, MArtin Gardner, and CSICOP in general.

Rob aka Mediancat

[Polar Bear]

Nope, none of them are interested in proselytizing or converting at all. I've certainly not had the experience of the Pagan Outreach Corps buttonholing me on the streets, or lobbying elected officials to make their beliefs the law of the land.

Just the same though, when I get into discussions with my pagan friends (that they initiate), over the validity of paganism vs. the validity of Christianity, I'd like to have some information on my side.

I'm already familiar with Randi, CSICOP, and so forth. Thanks.

[muon]

The Hutton books are *heavily* critical on the historical underpinnings of modern paganism. You will find a complete discussion of the historical origins of Wicca and related groups, who stole what idea from who, etc. Hutton also debunks a large amount of the pablum that pagans pass off about their origins, and about the religious beliefs of the ancients.

But these are history books. They debunk historical claims, of which neo-pagans make a bunch. The aim of these books isn't to show that magic doesn't work or that gods don't exist. Instead, Hutton argues that almost all the standard crap that neo-pagans put out about their origins and about the beliefs of ancient pagans is speculative, made-up bullshit.

You will not be disappointed. I would not have recommended these books if they weren't critical.

[Polar Bear]

I see ... thank you, then!

*off to the library*

[Aquila ka Hecate]

....or, Polar Bear, you could talk to me.

I've been practising wicca for about 17 years now, run two covens as a high priestess- and I'm recovering from the experience now, in my proper persona of atheist.

I'm about as skeptical as they come-well, ok, cynical, also!

[stryder2112]

Originally posted by oser:
<strong>But these are history books. They debunk historical claims, of which neo-pagans make a bunch. The aim of these books isn't to show that magic doesn't work or that gods don't exist. Instead, Hutton argues that almost all the standard crap that neo-pagans put out about their origins and about the beliefs of ancient pagans is speculative, made-up bullshit.</strong>

Here's an article that appeared in the <a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/cgi-bin/o/issues/2001/01/allen.htm" target="_blank">Atlantic Monthly</a> a few months ago that basically summarizes Hutton's book and debunks the "Goddess Movement" in general. The author, Charlotte Allen, is a Catholic apologist, btw.

Stryder

[Polar Bear]

Very interesting article, thanks Stryder!

However, I noticed that the author blows off the idea that any modern Christian ceremonies, traditions, rituals or holidays have any pagan origins whatsoever. Of course those origins are extremely well-documented -- perhaps she was trying too hard to distance her faith's trappings from their pagan roots?

[stryder2112]

Originally posted by Polar Bear:
<strong>Very interesting article, thanks Stryder!</strong>

You're welcome :D

<strong>
However, I noticed that the author blows off the idea that any modern Christian ceremonies, traditions, rituals or holidays have any pagan origins whatsoever. Of course those origins are extremely well-documented -- perhaps she was trying too hard to distance her faith's trappings from their pagan roots?</strong>

I agree, which is why I made sure to mention who the author is. For another article of hers, see this published in <a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-allen061702.asp" target="_blank">The National Review</a> where she blames the Catholic Church pedophile priest scandal on liberalism in the Catholic Church. <a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/20july98/fredriksen072098.html" target="_blank">Here's</a> a review by Paula Fredrisksen blasting Allen's <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684827255/" target="_blank">book</a> criticizing the Jesus Seminar.

Stryder

p.s. I now see that Toto started <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000406" target="_blank">this thread</a> over in Biblical Criticism & Archaeology about Ms. Allen's book.

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: stryder2112 ]

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: stryder2112 ]</p>

[shiver]

we are the musicmakers...and we are the dreamers of the dream.

[stryder2112]

Originally posted by oser:
<strong>Hutton is a serious historian and excellent writer. Ironically enough, I cannot determine his religious beliefs from his books---rumor is he's a pagan sympathizer, but certainly he calls a spade a spade.</strong>

I agree with your assessment. However, I should point out that only the flakiest neopagans and wiccans will insist the ridiculous historical claims are true. By and large, the neopagan community has embraced Dr. Hutton's work and use it to debunk the claims coming from their flakier fringe.

My experiences with neopagans makes me believe that, in general, the more serious ones are much like liberal xians. They know that the historical claims are bunk... and just don't care. They'll freely admit that their religion is a 20th century invention and will say that it doesn't really matter to them. They'll say that they are creating a modern spiritual expression that emphasizes closeness to nature, etc.

Of course, you'll also be able to find the high school kid who, like, bought this kewl book about witchcraft and stuff. Like, it says it's way old, from like 30,000 years ago and like how there's this goddess and spells and stuff....

Stryder

[mibby529]

Several American Indians, though not really atheists, have critiqued self-proclaimed "neo-Indians." (Geez, "neo" sure implies that we've died out.) They are very critical, however, pointing out that the "neo-Indian" beliefs are NOT traditional Indian beliefs. Since they are not what they claim, they cannot be accurate. Here are some sites:

<a href="http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/war.html" target="_blank">Lakota Declaration of War Against Exploiters</a>
Simply an official document saying that the Lakota will fight exploiters by any legal means.

<a href="http://www.lakotaoyate.com" target="_blank">Traditional Lakota elders</a>
(The Lakota are a New Age fave, so they're at the forefront of the movement against plastic shamans.)

<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/indie/mibby" target="_blank">Twinkies for Dummies</a>
My site.

<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newagefraudsplastichshamans" target="_blank">New Age Frauds Plastic Shamans</a>
It's back. New Agers tried to delete this list a la alt.religion.scientology, but it's back. And, yes, I am aware that the URL is misspelled, but it was a typo. Blame the owner. LOL

<a href="http://www.nafps.net" target="_blank">New Age Frauds Plastic Shamans</a>
The site for the last list.

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/cosaeuntwinkie/shame-ons.html" target="_blank">Shamans & Shame-ons</a>
An article by the owner of the NAFPS club. The site this is on was intended to inform European surfers that a "native shaman" is neither native nor a shaman.

[Zack]

To Mibby 529: A million thank-yous for the links about fake shamans. It is difficult to write about my experience with "white guy shamans" without getting very angry. I will just warn people that if you come into contact with one, DO NOT TRUST THEM! Do not share ANY personal information about yourself with them. They are a bunch of manipulative control freaks who will turn on you unless you buy all of their B.S. I am very happy to see that Native American leaders and others are getting in the face of these charlatns. These fakers and scam artists are no better than European Christian missionaries who helped to destroy Indian Culture.

[Polar Bear]

Hear hear, Mibby. I have a friend involved with AIM and similar orgs who really loathes these disgusting charlatans.

[stryder2112]

Originally posted by Polar Bear:
<strong>Hear hear, Mibby. I have a friend involved with AIM and similar orgs who really loathes these disgusting charlatans.</strong>

I'm glad Mibby added those links too.

Going back to an earlier post I made about wicca and historical claims, I'd like to expand a little on what I wrote. In general, criticizing the historical claims won't gain you much. However, going after the paranormal aspects are much better. In general, I've found that new agers and neopagans tend to swallow whole paranormal explanations of the world. Many are also really into the whole "occult," mystery religion, secret knowledge thing. Many are looking for that "occult master" or other person who has access to the "mysteries" and can initiate them into the world of hidden knowledge. That is the main reason that charlatans are endemic to the new age movement as a whole - tying it back to the American Indian/neoindian thing.

It's that same thing - the "secret mysteries" of native american religion that the neoindians are after, and that's what these fake shaman are selling, access to the "mysteries".

Stryder

[shiver]

"Going back to an earlier post I made about wicca and historical claims, I'd like to expand a little on what I wrote. In general, criticizing the historical claims won't gain you much. However, going after the paranormal aspects are much better."

The spiritualists I have encountered seem to be seeking the same thing that even most skeptics seek on this board...acceptance, comfort, consideration, companionship, unconditional friendship and the ever present hierarchy of needs as found in any tribe.

Conform or be cast out.

Follow your bliss...

[mibby529]

Unfortunately ppl fall for these types. Like, I can think of a million ways you can die in a fake Inipi. I mean, all that corner-cutting...Definitely a Darwin Awards candidate.

My favorite guy has always been Harley Reagan, an Irishman who claims to be half Cherokee. (I've never met anyone who was more than a quarter. LOL) Anyway, he does these orgies as a Cherokee ritual. (Talk about hitting below the belt!) And apparently Cherokee boys lose their virginity at twelve now. LOL He sometimes claims to be Mayan. He's neither.

[squiddy]

I don't know if my 2cents is worth anything in this discussion, but what the heck.

First off let me say I consider myself a "pagan" in the respect that I believe that the earth, life, the universe and everthing (sorry, couldn't resist) is alive, vital, and connected to everything else: me, you, every molecule, atom, etc. BUT I absolutely believe that trying to "convert" anyone to your/my way of thinking is just plain wrong. I don't care what you believe, if anything. I have no interest in making any sort of religious, quasi-religious, anti-religious point whatsoever. Does god/God exist? Beats the shit outta me. And furthermore, I'm not sure it really matters. We're here and that's good enough for me. Don't especially care how we got here. I think that what we do while we're here is what's important. Why? For some eternal reward? Nope. Just because it's the decent responsible thing to do-- as a sentient being.

I am also a firm believer that laughter is the key to salvation. (whatever the heck the word "salvation" means! LOL) That's what drew me to this site in the first place. Just the forum name "Internet Infidels," you just gotta love it! And I have not been disappointed! I just love the humor section.

I don't know if there's a God/gods/goddesses or not. But what I view as the god/goddess is that within me that connects me to everthing else in the universe. A wholeness of sorts. When I go out under the stars at night and look up, I just think "I'm part of all this!" And it's a wonderful feeling.

Thanks for listening.

~Squiddy

[brighid]

There are certainly a wide variety of neo-pagans out there, some of the flaky variety and some of the not so flaky variety. My group is half atheists and half deists of sorts (we now have 9 and so a little more then half leans to the deist side) … there is certainly a range of belief in the supernatural within our own group. I and the other atheist/agnostic types see the Gods and Goddesses as merely archetypal representations of different aspects of ones psyche and nothing more. A few others truly believe in the actual and physical existence of these deities and then a few others don’t really have a firm opinion. But none of this brings conflict in the group as we are allowed and encouraged to follow our individual consciences and there is NO dogma. We are very creative and each member brings a unique perspective to the group. We vary from age 29-50 some thing, although you could never tell by looking at the older members of the group that they aren’t about 30. I sure hope to look that good when I am 50!

I think the neo-pagan movement (at least in my limited experience) is really moving away from the earlier ramblings of authentic, historical practice. We just don’t know and there isn’t enough evidence to support those claims. Margot Adler does a good job in Drawing Down the Moon, and although she is a well known pagan (and you can read a column by her on Beliefnet) I don’t think she presented an overly biased opinion. It’s rather heavy reading though and I found much of it a bit boring, but informative. I can’t compare it against any of the other books that have been recommended.

I realize that most people think how can you be an atheist and a pagan … well, because I can. I truly enjoy the rituals behind paganism and this is quite possibly a hold over from my years of Catholic upbringing. I enjoy the company of these women and it is definitely a female bonding experience within our group. Even though I no longer believe in the actual existence of the Gods or Goddesses I still get the same physical response in rituals such as a sense of euphoria, increased energy (such that it is palpable) and a greater sense of personal balance. But it is all very meditative for me. I thoroughly enjoy my experiences within circle. These are women that I trust more then others because they have earned my trust and respect. We share very similar views and it helps to have a support network. They are a part of it. I also know that no matter what time of day or night it is, if I am in need one or all will be there to help. They deeply and truly care about my well being and did so before we ever became “sisters.” I don’t know if that kinship is a typical aspect within Paganism or simply within certain human communities that derived their membership based on mutual thought, trust and respect. It is simply something I feel I need in my life. I could not be a part of any organization that forced me to subvert my inherent characteristics or encouraged me to discriminate in any way against others. It is one of the few places in this world where my femininity is an asset and it is honored. Furthermore I don’t have to be dishonest with my lack of belief in Gods. I can be both, without conflict and enjoy high standing and respect within my group.

We DO NOT proselytize in any way and it takes a VERY, VERY long to time before one who has potential will be allowed into our inner circle. I definitely enjoy the company of pagans over most other theists, although I have a fond spot in my heart for more then a few traditional theists. Plus, we throw WAY better parties :D

Brighid

[jess]

of course, there is in-ranks dissention...
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/7290/" target="_blank">wiccan style...</a>

as you can see, not all pagans are doofs who believe everything... (not that you said they were)

[Dan828]

I stumbled on this one a while back. The guy has some issues, but there is quite a bit of information that is highly critical of wicca.

<a href="http://www.whywiccanssuck.com/" target="_blank">http://www.whywiccanssuck.com/</a>

[ps418]

Originally posted by Polar Bear:
<strong>The reason I ask is, I have several friends who are sharp enough to be wary of Christian claims of the supernatural, but are totally taken in by similar pagan/New Age claims (foretelling the future, contacting "goddesses," magic rituals influencing the future, etc.).</strong>

This describes me about 10 years ago, I'm embarassed to say. I was into Thelemic Magick and divination. I spent a small fortune buying old, out of print Aliester Crowley books. I had no doubt that I had successfully employed magick to influence other people. I could also convince others of my magickal abilities, provided they were gullible, had taken enough LSD, and were exposed to the right suggestions. . . The only thing of value I took from those years was yogic practice

To your friends, I'd recommend a simple logic textbook. What they need is not a critique of Wicca or divination per se, but simply to learn how to think on a very basic level. That's where 'recovery' started for me.

[Eudaimonist]

Originally posted by ps418:
<strong>To your friends, I'd recommend a simple logic textbook. What they need is not a critique of Wicca or divination per se, but simply to learn how to think on a very basic level. That's where 'recovery' started for me.</strong>

I agree. This is the best approach by far. :)