Excorcism on 20/20. How can we explain it? [Archive I] - Page 2

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DMC

May 17, 2007, 11:25 PM

I also thing you misunderstood separation between church and state. If the very mention of God was wrong then why is God the Author of the Constitution?

Bullshit.

Has your husband been teaching you these things?

I challenge you to provide evidence to support any of your claims. All you have done is told others to go check it out. I call BS. You make the claim, you show the proof. That's how it works. There's no reason for everyone here to run off searching for something you say exists. If it does, you show evidence of it. Otherwise, you are simply full of shit.

TomboyMom

May 18, 2007, 08:31 AM

grace: It's hard to admit you were mistaken, but truly only human. It can happen to the best of us. Admitting it does wonders for your credibility. Besides, Jesus asks you to be humble.

Admitting your ignorance is the unfortunate first step toward rectifying it.

purple_kathryn

May 18, 2007, 11:06 AM

You are ignorant of this. Not me. The Author of the constitution of the United states of America, the Author, why do you think Author is capitalized? It is a pronoun. Who do you think the Author according to our founders was? You are so wrong about this. Look it up.

Is there a reason why your god didn't write constitutions for other countries?

RAFH

May 18, 2007, 11:15 AM

Hello, gracebkr?

Are you there?

Hello, Hello?

Grace?

... ... ...

... ... ...

... ... ... grace?

Oh my, maybe she's become like her god, everywhere at once and nowhere at all?

On well, there'll be more coming along momentarily.

pob14

May 18, 2007, 01:51 PM

I also thing you misunderstood separation between church and state. If the very mention of God was wrong then why is God the Author of the Constitution?

I know I'm late to the party, but . . . seriously . . . Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot.

Do you sincerely believe the words that come out of your fingers? What, the authors of the Constitution could get together like Voltron? George Washington must have formed the head. It's Scuzzlebutt-Voltron-God with William Jackson and Benjamin Franklin for legs!

No, no, Jefferson was the head. Washington was the strong right arm. John Adams was the anus, and Franklin was the genitalia.

sometimesisquint

May 18, 2007, 09:51 PM

Is there a reason why your god didn't write constitutions for other countries?

:D

I know it's a legitimate question, it still made me smile. Big...like that.

---

I'm not sure that Grace is coming back...but if she does:

Grace, why the hell are you here? Back when I joined IIDB I was a Christian with strong ties to a Pentecostal denomination (I was going to become a youth pastor) and biblical values. I came here to attempt to both understand what the atheist and agnostic community thought about god and religion and also in some way to attempt to learn to communicate my position better. Unfortunately I am no longer a Christian and some of my "conversion" is certainly due to people and explanations on this site.

I would never have admitted to proselytizing and attempting to convert skeptics on this forum...I am curious if that is Grace's goal (or Carin Nel or any other Christian), and if so, man...that's both futile and unfortunate.

Regardless, my finger is still missing and exorcism's are fake.

RAFH

May 18, 2007, 10:21 PM

:D

I know it's a legitimate question, it still made me smile. Big...like that.

---

I'm not sure that Grace is coming back...but if she does:

Grace, why the hell are you here? Back when I joined IIDB I was a Christian with strong ties to a Pentecostal denomination (I was going to become a youth pastor) and biblical values. I came here to attempt to both understand what the atheist and agnostic community thought about god and religion and also in some way to attempt to learn to communicate my position better. Unfortunately I am no longer a Christian and some of my "conversion" is certainly due to people and explanations on this site.

I would never have admitted to proselytizing and attempting to convert skeptics on this forum...I am curious if that is Grace's goal (or Carin Nel or any other Christian), and if so, man...that's both futile and unfortunate.

Regardless, my finger is still missing and exorcism's are fake.

But just think, if you get a nicely done fake finger you can do a very convincing 'parting finger' trick. Or you could have a weaponized artificial finger or a bionic finger installed. Lasers, super strong, maybe like a Swiss Army Finger? Might be really cool.

I know if I ever get wheel chair bound I am getting one of those wheel chairs Dean Kamen invented, they climb stairs and can stand up. Except mine's going to be seriously supercharged.

sometimesisquint

May 18, 2007, 10:28 PM

But just think, if you get a nicely done fake finger you can do a very convincing 'parting finger' trick. Or you could have a weaponized artificial finger or a bionic finger installed. Lasers, super strong, maybe like a Swiss Army Finger? Might be really cool.

It's hardly noticeable, I cringe with melodramatic guilt just by calling it an "amputation"...nonetheless, I want to be whole. :D

I would like an Evil Dead type chainsaw or Swiss Army Finger...that would be cool. Perhaps an extra middle finger to really show those damn idiot motorists I'm angry when they cut me off.

RAFH

May 19, 2007, 03:05 AM

It's hardly noticeable, I cringe with melodramatic guilt just by calling it an "amputation"...nonetheless, I want to be whole. :D

I would like an Evil Dead type chainsaw or Swiss Army Finger...that would be cool. Perhaps an extra middle finger to really show those damn idiot motorists I'm angry when they cut me off.

Cool, you could V em and flip them the bird double. 3 for the price of one.

DaMan121

May 19, 2007, 03:20 AM

I also thing you misunderstood separation between church and state. If the very mention of God was wrong then why is God the Author of the Constitution?

Christians say the darndest things winner? I think so. :eek:

Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot.

:D Can I use this?

wordy

May 19, 2007, 03:41 AM

This one is easy. :) Child's play. Exorcism is a kind of very primitive Cognitive therapy. It is a reframing of the believer who see themselves as possessed.

It even works if they don't see themselves as possessed cause the procedur first teach them that they are possessed and then talk them out of it.

Incredibly cruel and primitive but could still work on some cause they use deconversion tactics. It is a kind of taking authority over the interpretation of what life is and the role we have in that life and the Exorcist force his view unto the Possessed regardless if they want it or not.

When they Exorcise houses from Spirits or dead persons the "Mediums" do a similar but more mildly version of reframing.

A kind of "drama" they play and invite the person with the poltergeist to participate in the mini-drama to help the lost spirit to find a home in the Light as they say. To go home to God as other say it.

As I told you, easy as pancakes. Just crack some eggs, ...

Carin Nel

May 19, 2007, 08:15 AM

Although she is much blessed,

Why do you say she is blessed?

her arms remain short, and always will. Unless modern medicine comes up with something, God is either unwilling or impotent to lengthen them for her. Why do you think that is?

Do you think God made her like that?
God said He made everything good and beautiful. Remember Satan came into the world and took over rulership after he was kicked out of heaven?
Guess who's fault it is that we have to put up with all the trouble and sickness and calamity in the world? Definitely not God's!!
After Jesus had died on the cross of Calvary for our sins and sicknesses and rose from the dead, He conquered Death and gave believers a chance to be healed and reconciled with Him again.
For those who believe, these signs shall follow -Mark 16.
Those who don't believe will unfortunately not be healed, even if it is God's wish that they should be healed and saved. Because of Satan we have a choice to make now.
It is God's will that things should be on earth as it is in heaven - PERFECT.
When it is not, as in the case of the girl with the short arms, or the amputee, it is not God's wish that it is like that, but He gives us a chance to put it right by prayer, fasting, etc. Believers even do not fully grasp the power given to them by God in accomplishing that commission given to them in Mark 16.
I believe as we obey, pray and succeed little by little, we will gain more confidence and motivation to be like the apostles in Acts with signs and ,iracles following us as we pray for those in need. That is God's will.
We must look at the successes and not be put off by the "failures"
If we don't, we will be like the rest who had given up before us and have not seen Mark 16 in action as Bill Johnsohn, Prophet Joshua, Kobus Van Rensburg, Trevor and Heidi Baker, Smith Wigglesworth, John G. Lake and many of God's generals have seen and are still seeing today.
There are many reasons why people get sick. They also have a responsibility to do exercise, eat correctly, live healthy etc. Then there are Biblical principals by which we must also live.
3 John says that a prosperous soul will have a prosperous body. It means that your mind can determine the condition of your physical body. God is a wise God!

Regards,
Carin Nel

He either can't or won't. Which one do you think it is?
He can and He wants to.
Believers must just have faith in the authority God has given them as believers. They must believe that He really wants to heal the person. They must know that the sickness will flee when they command it to go by the authority in th Name of Jesus.
Jesus died on the cross for all sins and sicknesses. By His stripes we are healed. That is why we take communion. The wine is a sign of His blood which flowed for our sins. The bread is a sign of His body who was bruised and cut for our sicknesses. (Our iniquities)
Even if the sick person does not believe in healing, the prayer of the believer will have an effect on the body and bring healing.

One of the youth team members in Bill Johnson's Church at Bethel Church went to a church meeting and asked an elderly lady if he could pray for her. She had cancer from the waist down, walked on crutches and was going for an operation the next day. She told the young student that she did not believe in healing and that he could pray for the docter who was going to operate on her the next day.
He said he would pray that God's will would be done in her body. (He said he knew it was God's will to heal her, and so it was a good prayer!)
After the prayer, she said again that she did not believe in healing and sat down. The next day she went to the hospital for the opration. Before he started operating, he did a check-up on her condition. He said to her, "Lady, I don't know how to tell you this, but you don't have cancer anymore"
If you want the details of the student and the lady, please contact Bill Johnson's Church-Bethel Church. The staff will give you names, telephone numbers etc.
There are also Healing Rooms in Spokaene and all over the world where people get healed. You can get testimonies on the internet.

Regards,
Carin Nel

Carin Nel

May 19, 2007, 09:39 AM

This miracle happened at Little Angels Place of Safety and Help Centre close to my home in South Africa:
Phillip and Pat van Rensburg tells the story: "Some time ago a baby was placed with us, newborn, and very ill. He had full-blown AIDS, and was fighting for his life. Doctors at the hospital confirmed the many signs such as enlarged liver and spleen, and swollen glands. We recognised the lack of thriving, the problem feeding, the whining and discomfort, the diarrhoea.
All the signs that we saw are typical childhood ailments, but in HIV sufferers, these conditions simply continue, or appear to sometimes improve, only to soon return again. So it was with Temba.
All we could do, the medical staff said, was "take him home and make him comfortable".
What a difficult thing to do, we didn't want to just make him comfortable; we wanted him to be well and naturally comfortable. We nursed him day and night, and often, when he was particularly distressed, Phillip and Pat would sleep on the lounge carpet with him on a little mattress between them, so that they could guard him throughout the night. When exhaustion overcame them, they took turns 2-hourly to sleep, the other keeping awake to watch his every movement. They prayed hard for him, loved him and held him. They took him to a friend's church one day, on invitation to them and all their babies, and there the congregation prayed for all their children, and laid hands on Temba as they prayed. That night Temba had his first peaceful sleep (at age 4 months). He started to feed better, and gradually the whining quietened to silence. His blood test had been done at the hospital and they sadly awaited the result. But two weeks after this prayer event, they were informed that his result had come back HIV negative!! They could not believe this miracle, and the hospital asked them to bring him in, as they too could not accept this. Three doctors examined him, and not one swelling was found, not one lump, not one sign of AIDS!
Temba has been adopted into a loving family, and is thriving.
We can never thank God enough for this miracle, and for the privilege of having cared for this precious child of His, and for the love we received in return from this special little angel."
Telephone and Fax Number : +27 21 7126169
Physical and Postal Address :1 Cherry Lane, TOKAI, 7945, Western Cape, South Africa Project Leaders and House Parents : Phillip and Pat van Rensburg

Regards,
Carin Nel

Carin Nel

May 19, 2007, 10:24 AM

The ministries of KwaSizabantu in KwaZulu Natal, South Africa, grew out of a tent evangelism ministry of Rev. Erlo Stegen. It is a most remarkable mission station and an on-going testimony of transformation. Since 1966, this Mission has been blessed with an extraordinary outpouring of God's grace. Tens of thousands of people, including gangsters, witchdoctors and Satanists have come to Christ through the remarkable ministries of KwaSizabantu.
A witch came to Erlo Stegen and said: "I'm looking for Jesus. Can He set me free? I'm bound with the chains of hell. Can He break these chains?"
Erlo Stegen, with five other co-workers, formed a circle around her and began to sing and pray. Suddenly the woman's eyes lit up with an evil glare, she writhed around like a wild animal that wants to attack and tear apart its prey. Then this woman began to make noises, first like many dogs barking, then it sounded as if a herd of pigs were screaming within her.
There was no doubt that they were dealing with demon possession. Erlo Stegen commanded these evil spirits to leave her in the Name of Jesus Christ. Then the voice of a man speaking in English, came from within her, refusing to leave. Erlo and his team continued to wrestle in prayer, struggling against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Then the evil spirits began to leave the woman with screams that sliced the air.

The next moment her face was transformed, it shone like one who had already lived in the presence of the Lord for a long time. While joy shone from her eyes, she called out: "How wonderful! Jesus has set me free! He has broken the chains of hell!" Everyone was awestruck. The Spirit of God had come into their midst in power.
For further information on KwaSizabantu Mission, visit
Web: http://www.ksb.org.za
KwaSizabantu Mission, P.O. Box 252, Kranskop, 3285
Tel: (032) 481-5500; Fax: (032) 481-5510
E-mail: mail@ksb.org.za
Dr. Peter Hammond

Regards,
Carin Nel

sometimesisquint

May 19, 2007, 10:47 AM

He can and He wants to.
Believers must just have faith in the authority God has given them as believers. They must believe that He really wants to heal the person. They must know that the sickness will flee when they command it to go by the authority in th Name of Jesus.

What is the explanation, then, for those afflictions which are not healed? Especially for those "believers" who find themselves unhealed?

---

My uncle (a so-called "backslidden" former believer) was working construction and accidentally shot himself in the eye with a nail gun. Because the men working with him were so queasy, my uncle drove himself to the hospital. Once there the doctors said there was a good chance my uncle would be blind in that eye. After many months of surgery and prayers from my strongly "believer" based family my uncle has sight in said eye once more...albeit with many more months/years of recovery.

My family obviously claims that god had something to do with this. I think the doctors did.

How about this:

A friend of a friend saw a demon possession at a church camp one summer and said that the possessed teenager writhed in agony and foamed at the mouth. The possession took place (the girl later confessed) because she had "experimented" with a Ouija board one time at a party and allowed Satan and/or one of his minions to enter her "being". The demon was exorcised with a simple prayer claiming the power of Jesus and his name.

You can contact this friend of a friend for the numbers/testimonies/various other details.

The only problem is that I remember this incident as well. For one thing, Ouija boards are a joke and a result of the ideomotor effect. Also, I saw said event happen back in the day and still think the girl was spitting and thrashing in what could be considered the poorest acting job this side of Kevin Costner. She was fine all week until the dramatic moment on one of the last nights when the emotions and spotlight took over.

Would you like my number and contact info so I can corroborate?

There is no testable information which you offer. Only anecdotal folk tales like my uncle or the church camp possession. Most of the supposed "healings" you describe have as much success as relative chance. The human body is quite capable of some amazing things. This has been tested and observed. There is, however, no distinguishable or actual effect of prayer, god or faith healers...the results are random and inconclusive.

I grew up in church (my family holds a long list of ministers and missionaries) as have most members here and have seen the run of these so-called healings and spiritual episodes. They are, by and large, bunk.

All anyone wants is a testable case. An actual person or event which transpired which can be tested by a neutral party. Medical miracles rarely happen in this day and age simply because our facility for weeding out charlatans is much easier given the nature of technological advance.

notasheep

May 19, 2007, 12:53 PM

It is God's will that things should be on earth as it is in heaven - PERFECT.
When it is not, as in the case of the girl with the short arms, or the amputee, it is not God's wish that it is like that, but He gives us a chance to put it right by prayer, fasting, etc. That is God's will.

Believers must just have faith in the authority God has given them as believers. They must believe that He really wants to heal the person. They must know that the sickness will flee when they command it to go by the authority in th Name of Jesus.

Even if the sick person does not believe in healing, the prayer of the believer will have an effect on the body and bring healing.

Headlines we'll never see:

Hospitals empty as believers pray

Medical profession worried as miracles continue

pob14

May 19, 2007, 02:33 PM

Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot.

:D Can I use this?

Heck yeah, I stole it myself, so help yourself. :devil1:

RAFH

May 19, 2007, 05:18 PM

Do you think God made her like that?

Well, the xbook says xgod made everything there is. By a process of elimination, that means xgod made her. Or am I missing something? Either xgod is the creator of everything or xgod isn't the creator of everything, which is it?

God said He made everything good and beautiful.

Oh, just the good and beautiful? Really? See above.

Remember Satan came into the world and took over rulership after he was kicked out of heaven?

Why did xgod permit that? Couldn't xgod stop Satan? Is Satan more powerful than xgod? Didn't xgod, as the creator of everything, also create Satan?

Guess who's fault it is that we have to put up with all the trouble and sickness and calamity in the world? Definitely not God's!!

Well, if xgod made everything the way it is, whose fault should it be? If a plan a bank robbery and teach the actual robbers what to do and how to do it, aren't I still guilty even if I don't participate in the robbery itself?

After Jesus had died on the cross of Calvary for our sins and sicknesses and rose from the dead, He conquered Death and gave believers a chance to be healed and reconciled with Him again.
For those who believe, these signs shall follow -Mark 16.
Those who don't believe will unfortunately not be healed, even if it is God's wish that they should be healed and saved. Because of Satan we have a choice to make now.
It is God's will that things should be on earth as it is in heaven - PERFECT.

Ah, you engage in ritual cannibalism. That's really weird. Really, really weird.

When it is not, as in the case of the girl with the short arms, or the amputee, it is not God's wish that it is like that, but He gives us a chance to put it right by prayer, fasting, etc.

Why is it like that in the first place, wasn't xgod paying attention? Why doesn't xgod just fix it? Does xgod have to have someone ask xgod to do things xgod should do?

Prayer has never been shown to be effective, indeed, just the opposite.

Believers even do not fully grasp the power given to them by God in accomplishing that commission given to them in Mark 16.

Then why aren't they at the hospitals healing by the thousands. Why aren't you doing it?

I believe as we obey, pray and succeed little by little, we will gain more confidence and motivation to be like the apostles in Acts with signs and ,iracles following us as we pray for those in need. That is God's will.

So where's the results?

We must look at the successes and not be put off by the "failures"

What 'successes'.

And, yes, you do seem to not be put off by your 'failures'. You don't even acknowledge them.

By the way, what 'successes'?

You keep asserting them but you never produce any evidence of such.

Did I mention you own me $100,000. And your xgod said you'd pay up or it would embarrass your xgod terribly and he'll have to smite you and sell your soul to Satan for some good Cuban cigars.

If we don't, we will be like the rest who had given up before us and have not seen Mark 16 in action as Bill Johnsohn, Prophet Joshua, Kobus Van Rensburg, Trevor and Heidi Baker, Smith Wigglesworth, John G. Lake and many of God's generals have seen and are still seeing today.

Still haven't produced any evidence Carin. Your claims are empty.

There are many reasons why people get sick. They also have a responsibility to do exercise, eat correctly, live healthy etc.

Plenty of healthy people get sick. I was a very healthy person, walked 3 miles before work every morning. Swam for 30 minutes every night and we walked about a mile on the beach every night. Your claims are empty.

Then there are Biblical principals by which we must also live.
3 John says that a prosperous soul will have a prosperous body. It means that your mind can determine the condition of your physical body. God is a wise God!

Ah, setting up your defense of other causes for sicknesses, but we aren't talking about getting sick, we are talking about your xgod failing to make people well.

He can and He wants to.

Then why doesn't your xgod do it?

Believers must just have faith in the authority God has given them as believers.

Don't you believe?

Are you saying others don't believe?

They must believe that He really wants to heal the person.

Don't you believe?

Are you saying others don't believe?

They must know that the sickness will flee when they command it to go by the authority in th Name of Jesus.

Don't you believe you know?

Are you saying others don't believe they know?

Jesus died on the cross for all sins and sicknesses. By His stripes we are healed. That is why we take communion. The wine is a sign of His blood which flowed for our sins. The bread is a sign of His body who was bruised and cut for our sicknesses. (Our iniquities)

Ah, again with the ritual cannibalism. That's really, really weird. Really, really, really fucking, really weird. Its also illegal.

Even if the sick person does not believe in healing, the prayer of the believer will have an effect on the body and bring healing.

So then there's no reason you couldn't heal me? I am up for it. I'd really like to be healed. Heal me Carin, heal me.

One of the youth team members in Bill Johnson's Church at Bethel Church went to a church meeting and asked an elderly lady if he could pray for her. She had cancer from the waist down, walked on crutches and was going for an operation the next day. She told the young student that she did not believe in healing and that he could pray for the docter who was going to operate on her the next day.
He said he would pray that God's will would be done in her body. (He said he knew it was God's will to heal her, and so it was a good prayer!)
After the prayer, she said again that she did not believe in healing and sat down. The next day she went to the hospital for the opration. Before he started operating, he did a check-up on her condition. He said to her, "Lady, I don't know how to tell you this, but you don't have cancer anymore"

Got evidence? If not this is just another unsupported anecdote.

If you want the details of the student and the lady, please contact Bill Johnson's Church-Bethel Church. The staff will give you names, telephone numbers etc.

I will contact them using your name. We'll see what they have. Nonetheless, this is an abdication of your responsibilities, its your claim, you should back it up. However, do you agree to give up your claims and renounce them forever if Bill Johnson's Church-Bethel Church doesn't or can't produce the information requested?

There are also Healing Rooms in Spokaene and all over the world where people get healed. You can get testimonies on the internet.

BFD, its your claim. You need to support it.

In any case, a testimonial on the internet isn't worth the paper its not printed on. Provide evidence Carin. Like for your claim your xgod was the author of the US Constitution. Or the supposed quote from Jefferson. Or any of your empty assertions.

Evidence Carin. Not assertions and claims.

KLK

May 19, 2007, 05:43 PM

I'm continually amazed at the theists who proffer this crap as if it was something new, something none of us has seen before.

Fodder for the intellectually flaccid.

Coleslaw

May 20, 2007, 06:55 AM

BFD, its your claim. You need to support it.

In any case, a testimonial on the internet isn't worth the paper its not printed on. Provide evidence Carin. Like for your claim your xgod was the author of the US Constitution. Or the supposed quote from Jefferson. Or any of your empty assertions.

Evidence Carin. Not assertions and claims.

Carin didn't claim God was the Author of the US Constitution-that was gracebkr.

Gawen

May 20, 2007, 07:50 AM

Those who don't believe will unfortunately not be healed, even if it is God's wish that they should be healed and saved.

One of the youth team members...asked an elderly lady if he could pray for her. She had cancer from the waist down, walked on crutches and was going for an operation the next day. She told the young student that she did not believe in healing and that he could pray for the docter who was going to operate on her the next day.
He said he would pray that God's will would be done in her body. (He said he knew it was God's will to heal her, and so it was a good prayer!)
After the prayer, she said again that she did not believe in healing and sat down. The next day she went to the hospital for the opration. Before he started operating, he did a check-up on her condition. He said to her, "Lady, I don't know how to tell you this, but you don't have cancer anymore"

Contradiction

Gawen

May 20, 2007, 07:56 AM

Isn't it amazing that demonic possession never occurs in atheists? I've never heard a case where it was so. It appears that possession only occurs in those that are superstitious.

Vicious Love

May 20, 2007, 08:13 AM

Isn't it amazing that demonic possession never occurs in atheists? I've never heard a case where it was so. It appears that possession only occurs in those that are superstitious.

Are you kidding? I've known atheists with epilepsy, somnambulism, aphasia (well, I know of them), dandruff, and all sorts of other demons.

Edit: In other news, it appears my postcount was 666 when I posted that. Pity I hadn't noticed; I would've just stayed silent for a week or two and freaked out the fundies with my demon-possessed account.

Carin Nel

May 20, 2007, 10:53 AM

"Those who don't believe will unfortunately not be healed, even if it is God's wish that they should be healed and saved."

You know I was talking about people who pray for the sick but don't really believe that it is God's will for them to be healed, or to put it another way, that God hates sickness. The one that prays must believe, not the one who receives prayer. Some Christians pray for the sick because the Bible tells them to do it, but they don't BELIEVE that God really wants to heal that person. Some Christians think that God uses sickness sometimes to make us better people. But of course it is untrue and absolutely unscriptural.
God wants everybody healed as well as saved.
Regards,
Carin

purple_kathryn

May 20, 2007, 11:09 AM

Gawen

May 20, 2007, 12:42 PM

You know I was talking about people who pray for the sick but don't really believe that it is God's will for them to be healed, No I didn't. That is not what you said. You said, and said it again:
"Those who don't believe will unfortunately not be healed, even if it is God's wish that they should be healed and saved."

God wants everybody healed as well as saved....The one that prays must believe, not the one who receives prayer. Then Kathyrn asks a legitimate question. Or is praying for no sickness anywhere too tall an order for your god to carry out? Then again, why bother with middlemen and god heals people straight out?

WWJD4aKlondikeBar

May 20, 2007, 12:47 PM

I'm continually amazed at the theists who proffer this crap as if it was something new, something none of us has seen before.Amen to that! Then when asked for evidence of their claims, they start quoting the bible and expecting us to assume, as they do, that they're irrefutably quoting God directly. Take this little gem:"Those who don't believe will unfortunately not be healed, even if it is God's wish that they should be healed and saved."Speaking for God again, eh? Seems like a bold thing to do when you believe that God would be angry at you for misrepresenting him for your own gain. Does not the plethora of different Abrahamic religions and different representations of the will and message of God give you pause? You factually can't all be correct. So in boldly declaring God's intent to us here, aren't you aware of the basic mathematical possibility probability that your message is essentially wrong?

Christians have been playing the telephone game with God's intent ever since the bible was finalized and declared to be the word of God. How can you say that we're supposed to believe you and not believe crazies like the Wesboro Baptist Church when you both get your ideas and information from the exact same place? You both think that you're speaking for God and who is anyone to tell either of you differently? So who are you really speaking for? Yourselves? Mmm-hmm. ;)

DancesWithCoffeeCups

May 20, 2007, 07:29 PM

Christians have been playing the telephone game with God's intent ever since the bible was finalized and declared to be the word of God. How can you say that we're supposed to believe you and not believe crazies like the Wesboro Baptist Church when you both get your ideas and information from the exact same place? You both think that you're speaking for God and who is anyone to tell either of you differently? <b> So who are you really speaking for? Yourselves?</b> Mmm-hmm. ;)

I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
-- Susan B Anthony - 1896

KLK

May 20, 2007, 07:38 PM

Yup. Funny how that works, isn't it?

Hedshaker

May 20, 2007, 07:41 PM

Welcome to IIDB DancesWithCoffeeCups :wave:

TomboyMom

May 20, 2007, 08:04 PM

Why do you say she is blessed? Figure of speech. Family, community, friends, talents--stuff like that.

Do you think God made her like that? No, I don't think God Exists. That is, I'm an atheist.
God said He made everything good and beautiful. Remember Satan came into the world and took over rulership after he was kicked out of heaven? No, I didn't see that, so can't remember it. Nor have I read or talked to anyone else who saw it.

After Jesus had died on the cross of Calvary for our sins and sicknesses and rose from the dead, He conquered Death and gave believers a chance to be healed and reconciled with Him again.
For those who believe, these signs shall follow -Mark 16.
Those who don't believe will unfortunately not be healed, even if it is God's wish that they should be healed and saved. Because of Satan we have a choice to make now.
It is God's will that things should be on earth as it is in heaven - PERFECT. Do you have any evidence for any of your factual assertions?

When it is not, as in the case of the girl with the short arms, or the amputee, it is not God's wish that it is like that, but He gives us a chance to put it right by prayer, fasting, etc. Believers even do not fully grasp the power given to them by God in accomplishing that commission given to them in Mark 16.
I believe as we obey, pray and succeed little by little, we will gain more confidence and motivation to be like the apostles in Acts with signs and ,iracles following us as we pray for those in need. That is God's will.
We must look at the successes and not be put off by the "failures"
If we don't, we will be like the rest who had given up before us and have not seen Mark 16 in action as Bill Johnsohn, Prophet Joshua, Kobus Van Rensburg, Trevor and Heidi Baker, Smith Wigglesworth, John G. Lake and many of God's generals have seen and are still seeing today.
There are many reasons why people get sick. They also have a responsibility to do exercise, eat correctly, live healthy etc. Then there are Biblical principals by which we must also live.
3 John says that a prosperous soul will have a prosperous body. It means that your mind can determine the condition of your physical body. God is a wise God! S. was born with this condition because of a genetic defect that she inherited from her mother.

Are you saying that it's the amputee's fault that God won't regrow their limbs? Not only are they suffering and handicapped, but it's their own damn fault? Whenever God fails to cure someone, it's that person's fault for having insufficient faith? And just by coincidence, everyone who has enough faith to be healed has a psychosomatic or subjective illness, but everyone who has a measurable, objective illness or injury just happens to lack enough faith.
I take back everything bad I've ever said about Islam. Christianity is clearly the cruelest religion in the world.

Nifty how God has that out from ever having to actually be effective.

TomboyMom

May 20, 2007, 08:07 PM

RAFH

May 20, 2007, 08:37 PM

Carin didn't claim God was the Author of the US Constitution-that was gracebkr.

You're right, I was wrong. Lost my score card and can't tell the players apart.

RAFH

May 20, 2007, 08:41 PM

Isn't it amazing that demonic possession never occurs in atheists? I've never heard a case where it was so. It appears that possession only occurs in those that are superstitious.

Which is one very good reason to not believe as far as I am concerned. My spine is bad enough as it is without my head spinning about.

The projectile vomit is pretty cool though. I can think of some situations where it would have come in handy.

RAFH

May 20, 2007, 08:45 PM

Then why doesn't he heal everybody? Seriously - if you had the opportunity to save someones life would you make them or someone on their behalf BEG constantly for you to do so?

Indeed, Carin, if you can heal, why aren't you? Think of the good work you could be doing, all the pain and suffering you could be eliminating. And it would have the bonus of glorifying your god. You don't even have to tell anybody but us who you are healing. So you won't personally benefit.

Come on Carin. Start the healing!

Johann Sin

May 20, 2007, 09:44 PM

Ok, NOW I am really lost... does God officially heal unbelievers or not???

Godless Dave

May 21, 2007, 01:11 AM

Godless Dave

May 21, 2007, 01:15 AM

This miracle happened at Little Angels Place of Safety and Help Centre close to my home in South Africa:
Phillip and Pat van Rensburg tells the story:

And why should we believe Phillip and Pat van Rensburg?

Godless Dave

May 21, 2007, 01:17 AM

God said He made everything good and beautiful. Remember Satan came into the world and took over rulership after he was kicked out of heaven?

I don't remember reading that in the Bible, probably because it isn't there.

purple_kathryn

May 21, 2007, 01:23 AM

Ok, NOW I am really lost... does God officially heal unbelievers or not???

No - beause they're unbelievers but apparently he really really wants to :huh:

modernPrimitive

May 21, 2007, 01:48 AM

RAFH

May 21, 2007, 01:57 AM

This miracle happened at Little Angels Place of Safety and Help Centre close to my home in South Africa:
Phillip and Pat van Rensburg tells the story: "Some time ago a baby was placed with us, newborn, and very ill. He had full-blown AIDS, and was fighting for his life. Doctors at the hospital confirmed the many signs such as enlarged liver and spleen, and swollen glands. We recognised the lack of thriving, the problem feeding, the whining and discomfort, the diarrhoea.
All the signs that we saw are typical childhood ailments, but in HIV sufferers, these conditions simply continue, or appear to sometimes improve, only to soon return again. So it was with Temba.
All we could do, the medical staff said, was "take him home and make him comfortable".
What a difficult thing to do, we didn't want to just make him comfortable; we wanted him to be well and naturally comfortable. We nursed him day and night, and often, when he was particularly distressed, Phillip and Pat would sleep on the lounge carpet with him on a little mattress between them, so that they could guard him throughout the night. When exhaustion overcame them, they took turns 2-hourly to sleep, the other keeping awake to watch his every movement. They prayed hard for him, loved him and held him. They took him to a friend's church one day, on invitation to them and all their babies, and there the congregation prayed for all their children, and laid hands on Temba as they prayed. That night Temba had his first peaceful sleep (at age 4 months). He started to feed better, and gradually the whining quietened to silence. His blood test had been done at the hospital and they sadly awaited the result. But two weeks after this prayer event, they were informed that his result had come back HIV negative!! They could not believe this miracle, and the hospital asked them to bring him in, as they too could not accept this. Three doctors examined him, and not one swelling was found, not one lump, not one sign of AIDS!
Temba has been adopted into a loving family, and is thriving.
We can never thank God enough for this miracle, and for the privilege of having cared for this precious child of His, and for the love we received in return from this special little angel."
Telephone and Fax Number :
Physical and Postal Address :1 Cherry Lane, TOKAI, 7945, Western Cape, South Africa Project Leaders and House Parents : Phillip and Pat van Rensburg

Regards,
Carin Nel

We will need the doctors names and copies of their reports. Both before and after. Please have these forwarded. At the very least provide the names and addresses of the doctors involved. The statements of lay persons, particularly those directly involved emotionally, are not satisfactory.

Carin Nel

May 21, 2007, 02:05 AM

Then why doesn't he heal everybody? Seriously - if you had the opportunity to save someones life would you make them or someone on their behalf BEG constantly for you to do so?

If you inherit $1million on paper, but you don't believe the testament and does nothing about it. Will you benefit?
Jesus died and paid for everyone's healing. Those who believe will get the benefit.
It is the faith part that makes the difference. The begging and the faith must in some way connect. Get it?
Moses could not just believe that the Red sea would part; he had to step out and give the first step in faith and start walking towards the water. The same as Peter.
Some people start praising God for their healing before they even see results, and after some days only see the healing start happening. It really is a matter of faith.
To decree something that you cannot see as if you already can is faith, according to Heb.1.
God will honour faith that like, because Jesus paid for healing.
He died for everyone's salvation whiich means - wholeness in every part of the body, soul and spirit-every area of your life. Faith is what makes the difference. Not how hard you beg. God knows the difference between begging and faith. It is a spiritual law that works like any scientific law.

Regards,
Carin Nel

Johann Sin

May 21, 2007, 02:26 AM

If you inherit $1million on paper, but you don't believe the testament and does nothing about it. Will you benefit?
Jesus died and paid for everyone's healing. Those who believe will get the benefit.
It is the faith part that makes the difference. The begging and the faith must in some way connect. Get it?
Moses could not just believe that the Red sea would part; he had to step out and give the first step in faith and start walking towards the water. The same as Peter.
Some people start praising God for their healing before they even see results, and after some days only see the healing start happening. It really is a matter of faith.
To decree something that you cannot see as if you already can is faith, according to Heb.1.
God will honour faith that like, because Jesus paid for healing.
He died for everyone's salvation whiich means - wholeness in every part of the body, soul and spirit-every area of your life. Faith is what makes the difference. Not how hard you beg. God knows the difference between begging and faith. It is a spiritual law that works like any scientific law.

Regards,
Carin Nel

In other words, god is NOT omnipotent, since he is unable to heal unbelievers.

Carin Nel

May 21, 2007, 02:45 AM

Figure of speech. Family, community, friends, talents--stuff like that.

S. was born with this condition because of a genetic defect that she inherited from her mother.

Are you saying that it's the amputee's fault that God won't regrow their limbs? .
When did she go for prayer?
Please take her to Bethel Church and ask for the Healing Team to pray for her.
How can you say that GOD does not want to heal her?
No, I don't say it's her fault that she's like that. I said it's not God's fault, but Satan's fault who now rules as prince of this world and who brought sin into the world.
I blame Satan, not God.

Not only are they suffering and handicapped, but it's their own damn fault?.
No, it's Satan's fault that ther's suffering in the world.

Whenever God fails to cure someone, it's that person's fault for having insufficient faith?

There are many reasons why people don't get healed. Mostly it is the person who prays for the one who is sick, who lacks either the faith, or the discernment as to what the real problem is. eg cancer may be a result of unforgiveness, bitterness etc - (ask the psycologists if you don't believe me). Sickness may be brought on by many things, and we have to have discernment to pinpoint the reason for the sickness. When it is a physical deformity or injury caused by an accident, obviously that will have to be prayed for with mere authority and anointing by the Holy Spirit on the one that prays.

And just by coincidence, everyone who has enough faith to be healed has a psychosomatic or subjective illness, but everyone who has a measurable, objective illness or injury just happens to lack enough faith..

That is spoken out of pure ignorence.

I take back everything bad I've ever said about Islam. Christianity is clearly the cruelest religion in the world.

Good for you. One should not say bad things about other people, because a religion is a dead thing, like Islam and Christianity.
What matters is the person's relationship with his God and how he reacts towards his "neighbor".

Regards,
Carin Nel

Carin Nel

May 21, 2007, 02:51 AM

In other words, god is NOT omnipotent, since he is unable to heal unbelievers.

Where do you get this revelation from?
I said that God died for everyone. If you believe that, you can be healed.
If a believer prays for an unbeliever, that unbeliever could be healed because of the prayer of the believer.
Why should someone get healed if he does not want to ask the Healer?

God says in His word that if you seek you shall find.
If an unbeliever does not believe in God, then obviously he will not ask God to heal him, not so?
What's your problem?

Regards,
Carin

Carin Nel

May 21, 2007, 02:54 AM

And why should we believe Phillip and Pat van Rensburg?

You don't have to. Should you really wish to know, you could contact them, but why bother, because then you might hear something you don't want to believe, but have to?

Regards,
Carin Nel

Godless Dave

May 21, 2007, 03:12 AM

You don't have to. Should you really wish to know, you could contact them, but why bother, because then you might hear something you don't want to believe, but have to?

How would contacting them give me the facts? Why should I believe them?

Carin Nel

May 21, 2007, 03:15 AM

No I didn't. That is not what you said. You said, and said it again:
"Those who don't believe will unfortunately not be healed, even if it is God's wish that they should be healed and saved."

Then Kathyrn asks a legitimate question. Or is praying for no sickness anywhere too tall an order for your god to carry out? Then again, why bother with middlemen and god heals people straight out?

This was my quote, so please read it in context:

Originally Posted by Carin Nel
After Jesus had died on the cross of Calvary for our sins and sicknesses and rose from the dead, He conquered Death and gave believers a chance to be healed and reconciled with Him again.
For those who believe, these signs shall follow -Mark 16.

Those who don't believe will unfortunately not be healed, even if it is God's wish that they should be healed and saved. Because of Satan we have a choice to make now. (A choice to believe or not believe)- Added
It is God's will that things should be on earth as it is in heaven - PERFECT.

I was talking about believers doing signs and wonders. People who don't believe would not be able to perform signs and wonders like in Mark 16.
As a matter of fact, who will pray to a god they don't believe in to be healed?
You won't!
That is what I meant.
If you believe in God, and believe that He wants to heal everybody, your prayer shall be answered.

Regards,
Carin Nel

Godless Dave

May 21, 2007, 03:23 AM

Then why do devout, believing Christians still die of cancer? Why do believing Christians whose limbs were amputated not grow new ones?

pob14

May 21, 2007, 08:35 AM

No, it's Satan's fault that ther's suffering in the world.

And Satan was created, given his power, and allowed to reign over the earth by . . . . whom? Let's make this a multiple choice, shall we?

a) Bill Gates
b) Col. Sanders
c) The evil atheist conspiracy
d) RAFH
e) God

purple_kathryn

May 21, 2007, 10:52 AM

TomboyMom

May 21, 2007, 11:04 AM

We will need the doctors names and copies of their reports. Both before and after. Please have these forwarded. At the very least provide the names and addresses of the doctors involved. The statements of lay persons, particularly those directly involved emotionally, are not satisfactory.

Actually it is quite common for HIV positive babies to sero-convert. AFAICR about 1/3 do. I myself know two healthy children born HIV positive. I guess we could ask why Yahweh doesn't convert the other 2/3, or whatever the percentage is.

TomboyMom

May 21, 2007, 11:05 AM

If you inherit $1million on paper, but you don't believe the testament and does nothing about it. Will you benefit?
Jesus died and paid for everyone's healing. Those who believe will get the benefit.
It is the faith part that makes the difference. The begging and the faith must in some way connect. Get it?
Moses could not just believe that the Red sea would part; he had to step out and give the first step in faith and start walking towards the water. The same as Peter.
Some people start praising God for their healing before they even see results, and after some days only see the healing start happening. It really is a matter of faith.
To decree something that you cannot see as if you already can is faith, according to Heb.1.
God will honour faith that like, because Jesus paid for healing.
He died for everyone's salvation whiich means - wholeness in every part of the body, soul and spirit-every area of your life. Faith is what makes the difference. Not how hard you beg. God knows the difference between begging and faith. It is a spiritual law that works like any scientific law.

Regards,
Carin Nel
So the problem with 100% of amputees is that they don't have enough faith for God to regrow their limbs? That's your story?

TomboyMom

May 21, 2007, 11:10 AM

Carin:
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Carin: Do you believe and have faith in God and Jesus Christ? Are you able to lay hands on the sick so they recover? Are you willing and able to drink any deadly thing with faith it will not hurt you?

Mageth

May 21, 2007, 11:23 AM

Jesus died and paid for everyone's healing. Those who believe will get the benefit.

Those who don't will get the shaft! They won't just not benefit; that's not enough for Jesus. They'll be made to suffer eternally.

God's desire is to save us, heal us, to make us feel good and so on? Pah! Any such alleged "desire" is revealed as false by the notion of eternal punishment.

BTW the story goes that this Jesus fellow isn't dead. So what's with the claim of him "dying"? "Died" means dead, dead means dead, and the truly dead stay dead. Kaput. Worm food. No more. As God's alleged concern for us is falsified by the notion of eternal punishment, so is Jesus' alleged "death" falsified by him, umm, not being dead.

It is the faith part that makes the difference. The begging and the faith must in some way connect. Get it?

Not only do you have to grovel before God to get something from it, you have to be sincere in your groveling.

Moses could not just believe that the Red sea would part; he had to step out and give the first step in faith and start walking towards the water. The same as Peter.

Colorful fictions. Nothing more.

Have you parted a sea lately, or walked on water? Seen anyone do it? Why not? Don't you have faith? According to you, all you have to do is really believe God works that way and then "start walking towards the water." Care to try it out? I doubt it; I'm sure you (and any other Christian) would come up with some excuse for God's not parting the sea or holding you up on the water if you tried.

Some people start praising God for their healing before they even see results, and after some days only see the healing start happening. It really is a matter of faith.

I've personally seen this many times (not kidding here). Someone gets a cold or the flu, prays (with faith) to get better, perhaps even "praising God for their healing before they see results", and sure enough, "after some days" they start to get better! (In the meanwhile, taking their medicine or perhaps going to the Dr.) It's really amazing how that works! Glory to God! (Or at least, that's where they tend to apply the glory, when they should be praising their body's natural response to sickness, as well as the Pharmacists and Drs. of the world).

To decree something that you cannot see as if you already can is faith, according to Heb.1.

Yes, we know the Bible teaches an irrational approach to the world. "Wishful thinking is faith, and faith is good!"

So, Carin, decree that you can part a sea or walk on water. Then go give it a try! Step out onto the water! (I'd advise taking a "swim buddy" and wearing a life vest...but of course, that might signal to God that you really don't have that much faith, so he probably would let you sink, you doubter you!).

God will honour faith that like, because Jesus paid for healing.

Jesus paid for it, but if you want it you have to pay for it again. God makes a killing in the process. He gets his due on the front end and the back end.

He died for everyone's salvation whiich means - wholeness in every part of the body, soul and spirit-every area of your life.

Again with the dead thing. I thought he wasn't dead.

And again, he supposedly "died" to save everyone, but not everyone is saved. Why? God requires double payment. Jesus paid, now you gotta pay too. If you don't, God will extract infinite payment from you.

Faith is what makes the difference. Not how hard you beg. God knows the difference between begging and faith.

Got faith? Take a video camera and videotape yourself parting a sea or walking on water. All you gotta do is step out onto the water! Or give us an explanation as to why you don't have faith God doesn't work that way.

It is a spiritual law that works like any scientific law.

No scientific law works that way, Carin. You don't have to have "faith" that you will, for example, sink if you step out of a boat without a life jacket on. Or at least get wet; you might float a bit in a sea with very high salinity. "Scientific laws" take care of that. They're consistent, and tend to always work and work the same, no matter what the subject thinks about them or believes about them. E.g., you don't have to have faith in gravity. It pulls you toward the center of mass no matter what you believe or think about it. You won't not fall if you don't have faith in gravity.

You don't have to think the right thing or act the right way to get any scientific law to work.

So don't compare your "tinkerbell faith law" with scientific law. It's an embarrasment to reason.

TomboyMom

May 21, 2007, 11:29 AM

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
~Philip K. Dick

Mageth

May 21, 2007, 11:43 AM

If you believe in God, and believe that He wants to heal everybody, your prayer shall be answered.

I know from experience that this is not true. If this is the "law" you're talking about, it does not work the way you say it works.

Many times I've witnessed people that really believe in God, that really believe God heals, pray for themselves or for others to no avail. Many, many, many times. In many of these cases, there were tens, hundreds or even thousands of believers praying. Surely some of those really believed! (And two recent examples were my father and brother, who both died from their illness).

The typical "excuse" for God's failure to heal is that, for some reason, God chose not to heal that person in that particular situation. Even that God did answer the prayer, but the answer was "No, sorry, not this time. The person is sick and will remain sick because that's my plan." People make the excuse for failed healings that God's plan doesn't include that person being healed. So tough luck for them, I suppose. They just gotta suck it up and try to figure out why God plans for them to be sick or even die. (In my father and brother's cases, it was that "God chose to take them home". My brother was only 53, and had a 10-year-old daughter who loved him very much, as did my son, who doted on him, and he was my best friend, so screw God and his "plan"! BTW, I've seen babies suffer long illnesses and sometimes even die that were being prayed for...God's plan, if there is such a thing, sure includes a freakin' lot of sickness, pain, suffering and dying.)

Only some people would go as far as saying "the prayer and/or the one being prayed for didn't have enough faith." In my opinion, that's just sick. It's demeaning to the one doing the praying or to the one being prayed for that for some reason it's their fault that God didn't grant healing in this case. (It's rather demeaning to God as well, IMO, to imply that he's such a snot that he won't heal, say, a very sick baby because the person doing the praying "doesn't have enough faith".)

The baby thing really gets me. God lets sick babies die either because no one happens to pray for them or, if they do, they don't have enough faith that God will heal the baby? If God works that way, then he's a selfish, cruel bastard. (Forgive the French, but that's the way I feel about it).

Mageth

May 21, 2007, 11:48 AM

Then why do devout, believing Christians still die of cancer? Why do believing Christians whose limbs were amputated not grow new ones?

Why do sick babies being prayed for die, regardless of the level of "faith" of those doing the prayer?

KLK

May 21, 2007, 11:59 AM

Mageth--It's an embarrasment to reason.And to the christiantists that spew this junk. Or at least those with half a brain. But when they realize how nonsensical this crap is they retreat to the god is 'ineffable', god is 'unknowable' line--thus negating all they claimed to 'know' about what god is and what god does and what god wants. Yet, they believe regardless--such a childish attachment.

Mageth

May 21, 2007, 03:36 PM

And to the christiantists that spew this junk. Or at least those with half a brain. But when they realize how nonsensical this crap is they retreat to the god is 'ineffable', god is 'unknowable' line--thus negating all they claimed to 'know' about what god is and what god does and what god wants. Yet, they believe regardless--such a childish attachment.

Indeed. Carin Nel's claim that "If you believe in God, and believe that He wants to heal everybody, your prayer shall be answered" is, as I stated, strongly contradicted by the evidence of experience. Thousands if not millions of prayers for healing are not answered every day. People that are prayed for by hundreds or even thousands of believers in God's healing power, people in churches and "prayer chains", go unhealed; many die despite the prayers. Millions of humans, billions actually, remain unhealed by a God that supposedly wants to heal everybody! How can this be the case?

Carin can come up with anecdotal evidence of the occasional alleged healing of the not-so-miraculous kind (no amputated limbs regrown, no quadraplegics restored, etc.) in some far-off or special place like a "healing church" (that you need to go to to get healed? Why that?) and with no supporting documentation of any substance (just the anecdote), but in so doing Carin, like so many believers, is ignoring the overwhelmingly more numerous examples of the failure of prayer to heal. Prayer, as a reliable cure for disease and injury, is an abject failure. Anyone who's been paying attention should readily see this!

Carin, like other believers, is stuck with making excuses for God's failure to heal - either the prayer or the subject didn't have enough, or not the right kind of, faith...or perhaps Carin could argue that for some reason God, far more often than not, chooses not to heal (which would contradict the "your prayer shall be answered" claim of Carin's in a subtle way - technically, it does not contradict it, because your prayer is answered "no", but since Carin believes God "wants to heal everybody", there is contradiction).

Carin Nel

May 21, 2007, 03:51 PM

How would contacting them give me the facts? Why should I believe them?

Sorry, I did not know you could not think that far. The doctor who was involved should probably not lie, and the medical forms and test results before and after the healing should probably not be false. Maybe the nurses and other doctors involved are not christians and they will tell you what really happened. At least give it a shot. Maybe the Van Rensburgs are honest Christians who won't lie for their God's sake!
You really don't trust Christians, do you?!

Regards,
Carin Nel

Mageth

May 21, 2007, 04:06 PM

The doctor who was involved should probably not lie, and the medical forms and test results before and after the healing should probably not be false. Maybe the nurses and other doctors involved are not christians and they will tell you what really happened.

I've heard that line before, and have asked for some written confirmation, but have never received any. Can you make the effort to gather the evidence yourself and present it to GD, me, or the board here in general? Can you do that? Do you have enough trust/faith in what you're saying to make that effort? Do you?

At least give it a shot.

Do you have enough trust/faith in what you're saying to make that effort and present the evidence here? Do you?

Maybe the Van Rensburgs are honest Christians who won't lie for their God's sake!

I know lots of honest Christians that won't lie for their God's sake that truly believe in healing, and believe in specific anecdotes of healing. They believe. They aren't lying when they say they've witnessed a healing; they really believe they've witnessed a healing, and that God performed that healing.

Unfortunately for your case, the fact they believe that, and are thus not lying, does not prove the case.

Unfortunately for your case, the evidence to support their belief appears to come only in the form of anecdotes, second- and third-hand anecdotes more often than not. If healing is so prevalent (and so easily accessible as you make it out to be) why is it not witnessed every day? Why aren't there miraculously healed patients walking out of every hospital in the nation right now, and reporters there waiting for their stories, which would include medical reports, before-and-after X-rays, and so on? Why aren't there reports in medical journals that report that "only God can account for the fact that this quadraplegic was healed" or that "Joe Smith grew a new leg!"?

The fact is, Carin, there is no evidence for healing outside anecdotes.

And, unfortunately for your case, for some reason those honest Christians I know are blind to the fact that the vast, vast majority of prayers go unanswered. The evidence of experience indicates strongly that prayer is ineffective as a healer. Yet, through their belief and faith (or because of their belief and faith), those Christians hold on to the occasional anecdote that they see as a confirmation of their belief, while ignoring the many, many cases that contradict their belief.

"Confirmation bias", I believe it's called.

You really don't trust Christians, do you?!

I trust many Christians. I, for example, trust my mother, who really believes in the healing power of God, and really believes that God has performed miraculous healings. Yet my mother, like so many, remembers the few cases that confirm her belief, and forgets the many, many more cases that contratict her belief.

TomboyMom

May 21, 2007, 04:06 PM

Mageth

May 21, 2007, 04:25 PM

KLK

May 21, 2007, 04:32 PM

Mageth--The evidence of experience indicates strongly that prayer is ineffective as a healer.As does the evidence from studies of intercessory prayer. The large (1800 people) 3-year study, largely funded by the Templeton Foundation that was developed and coordinated by a psychologist, clergy and doctors from six institutions, including Harvard Medical School and the Mayo Clinic, and published last spring in the American Heart Journal, 'found no differences in survival or complication rates compared with those who did not receive prayers. The only statistically significant blip appeared in a subgroup of patients who were prayed for and knew it. They experienced a higher rate of postsurgical heart arrhythmias (59 versus 52 percent of unaware subjects).' [Scientific American]

Carin Nel

May 21, 2007, 04:46 PM

I know from experience that this is not true. If this is the "law" you're talking about, it does not work the way you say it works.

Many times I've witnessed people that really believe in God, that really believe God heals, pray for themselves or for others to no avail. Many, many, many times. In many of these cases, there were tens, hundreds or even thousands of believers praying. Surely some of those really believed! (And two recent examples were my father and brother, who both died from their illness).

The typical "excuse" for God's failure to heal is that, for some reason, God chose not to heal that person in that particular situation. Even that God did answer the prayer, but the answer was "No, sorry, not this time. The person is sick and will remain sick because that's my plan."

That is not Scriptural. Just because the person died does not mean that God did not want to heal the person. If a person "has to remain sick because it's God's "plan" - (the latest lie among Christians who wants a nice cop-out for "unanswered" prayer, is , "God wants us to become more like Jesus"!) then the intensive care units in the hospitals should be filled with patients singing constant songs of praise to God!! How rediculous!!
The Bible says very clearly that Jesus Christ paid for all sin and sickness on Calvary. If God then wants someone sick, then the Father and the Son is divided and not in agreement on this matter and that can never be. God sent Jesus for the sinners and the sick to save them, and that He did on the Cross. Sickness is to the body as sin is to the soul. That is why Jesus gave His blood (for the sins of the world) and His body (for the sicknesses of the world). Now, through faith in that work on the Cross, those who believe has the power to be saved and healed in His name. If it does not happen, it is not God's fault, because He had done His part. Don't you see that it is up to the believers to press through in prayer, fasting and persistence untill their time of break-through has come? Jesus gives many ways how we should pray. Sometimes we have to praise God in spite of the circumstances and keep on untill the healing comes. How many believers do that? How many have the faith to see the Kingdom of God come in power? How many are prepared to go on a fast for a time of repentance untill they see the salvation of the Lord? How many really believe that God wants to heal them, in spite of what the doctors report say? How many will stay awake through the night to fast and pray for a loved one and praise God for His provision, even wwhen they see no change in the situation?
If believers will take God seriously at His word, and stop wanting fast results in this modern age where everything comes easy without sacrifice, we will see miracles and wonders and healings. That is what the believers do in the situations where there are miracles and healings taking place. That is what is happening in Bill Johnson's Church. There God honours the hearts of those believers who diligently seek Him, and not His gifts. That is what is happening in Prophet Joshua's Church in Nigeria. That is what is happening in KwasiZaBantu in KwaZulu Natal, South Africa where Erlo Stegers is seeing miracles on a regular basis.
We see it more and more in our group as our faith is starting to grow by the healings that take place.
When a loved one dies after intensive prayer, it is a tragedy, and we feel like giving up, but it should actually make us more tenacious to find out where we have made our mistakes, because God has nothing to do with the death of that person.
God did not originate sin, and He did not originate sickness. How then can it be His fault that people get sick?!

Only some people would go as far as saying "the prayer and/or the one being prayed for didn't have enough faith." In my opinion, that's just sick. It's demeaning to the one doing the praying or to the one being prayed for that for some reason it's their fault that God didn't grant healing in this case. (It's rather demeaning to God as well, IMO, to imply that he's such a snot that he won't heal, say, a very sick baby because the person doing the praying "doesn't have enough faith".)

No, it's not. You don't understand. The believers who read this will probably don't feel like you about my statement. I don't mean it as an insult, but as a mere spiritual law in the kingdom of God. It is almost like a scientific law. When you lose your balance and fall, the laws of gravity works on your body so that you hit the ground hard and may hurt yourself. Who do you blame if you want to be fair? God?
He gave us the spiritual laws for healing and prayer and if we apply them correctly, they will work or not. Same thing. Who do we blame? God?
The same with reaping and sowing.
Christians don't understand that. We don't want to follow the rules, but want quick results.
Faith is a spiritual law that works agaisnst our natural mind, and that is why it is so difficult for modern man to operate out of faith.
In Africa we see more miracles than in the West. It's a fact. It's beginning to change, however as we are beginning to learn the basic principles of the Word on faith and healing.

The baby thing really gets me. God lets sick babies die either because no one happens to pray for them or, if they do, they don't have enough faith that God will heal the baby? If God works that way, then he's a selfish, cruel bastard. (Forgive the French, but that's the way I feel about it).

With sick babies it works exactly the same. but when a baby dies, God takes him home to heaven immediately, as he was not old enough to make a responsible decision to believe or not.

Regards,
Carin Nel

Carin Nel

May 21, 2007, 05:20 PM

Carin claims that "it's Satan's fault that there's suffering in this world."

Carin, do you believe what the woman claims that is referenced in this thread:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=207970

It sounds, on the surface, like you do. If not, why not? Why is the woman wrong?

Here is the quote- " A woman blames the devil, and not her husband, for severely burning their infant daughter in a microwave, a Texas television station reported. Eva Marie Mauldin said Satan compelled her 19-year-old husband, Joshua Royce Mauldin, to microwave their daughter May 10 because the devil disapproved of Joshua's efforts to become a preacher."

Just because Satan originated sin, it does not mean that we now have the green light to “obey” him. It is true to his nature to give such a command, yes, like the one he suggested to Eve in the Garden of Eden which was contrary to what God clearly had commanded her not to do- eat of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
This guy had to have a knowledge of good and evil!!
You see, Satan will always try to make people do the wrong things, but of course, when they obey, they will have to bear the grave consequences. There are no excuses!
If he could not distinguish between right or wrong (good and evil), then he needs serious counseling!!
It’s very noble of his wife not to blame him! I sure hope and pray that he does not become a pastor while he is still in such a state of mind!!

Good question!

Regards,
Carin Nel

sometimesisquint

May 21, 2007, 05:32 PM

It’s very noble of his wife not to blame him!

No. It's ludicrous and indicative of the superstitious idiocy inherent in much of the human race.

TomboyMom

May 21, 2007, 05:41 PM

That is what is happening in Prophet Joshua's Church in Nigeria. That is what is happening in KwasiZaBantu in KwaZulu Natal, South Africa where Erlo Stegers is seeing miracles on a regular basis.
We see it more and more in our group as our faith is starting to grow by the healings that take place.

You mean this Prophert Joshua? (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/tbjoshua.html) Which Christian should I believe, the one who says he is furthering God's healing, or the one who says he is a fake and a heretic?

RAFH

May 21, 2007, 05:49 PM

And Satan was created, given his power, and allowed to reign over the earth by . . . . whom? Let's make this a multiple choice, shall we?

a) Bill Gates
b) Col. Sanders
c) The evil atheist conspiracy
d) RAFH
e) God

OK, I confess, it was me. I was fooling around with the oouji board and the chemistry set while mincing up some shrooms. Things got outta hand. Sorry.

Godless Dave

May 21, 2007, 05:57 PM

RAFH

May 21, 2007, 06:08 PM

Sorry, I did not know you could not think that far. The doctor who was involved should probably not lie, and the medical forms and test results before and after the healing should probably not be false. Maybe the nurses and other doctors involved are not christians and they will tell you what really happened. At least give it a shot. Maybe the Van Rensburgs are honest Christians who won't lie for their God's sake!
You really don't trust Christians, do you?!

Regards,
Carin Nel

Should probably not? Maybe will? That's great Carin. Good stuff.

But I do really like the last two Maybes.

"Maybe the nurses and other doctors involved are not christians and they will tell you what really happened."

"Maybe the Van Rensburgs are honest Christians who won't lie for their God's sake!"

Sort of suggests xians lie.
Maybe the nurses and doctors are not xians and won't lie.
Maybe the Van Rensburgs are honest xians (as opposed to the usual xians?) and won't lie.

I think beneath all the bluster Carin really is antitheist and especially anti-xian.

Mageth

May 21, 2007, 07:13 PM

Wow. Just wow.

That is not Scriptural.

I know a bit about Scripture, Carin (believe it or not) and the formulatic "law" notion of "Faith Healing" that you have is hardly scriptural at all.

Just because the person died does not mean that God did not want to heal the person. If a person "has to remain sick because it's God's "plan" - (the latest lie among Christians who wants a nice cop-out for "unanswered" prayer, is , "God wants us to become more like Jesus"!) then the intensive care units in the hospitals should be filled with patients singing constant songs of praise to God!! How rediculous!!

You think that's the "latest lie among Christians"? The notion that God acts based on a Plan, and may heal or not heal someone based upon a Plan, goes way back. Back at least to Jesus (who talked about God permitting some to be sick or afflicted, so that He (the Father) could be glorified).

Jhn 9:2-3: And his disciples asked him, saying, "Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."

IOW, "He was born blind so that the power of God could be seen in him." Who would be the one to cause that blindness? Why, God of course!

And you might want to read 2 Cor. 12, where Paul talks about an infirmity, a "thorn in his flesh", that he "besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me." But no, it did not. God answered his prayer. How? "My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness." In other words, I'm not going to heal you, I'm not going to relieve you of the affliction. Why? So that My strength can be perfected through your weakness (so God will get the glory, not Paul; that's the bottom line).

Paul's response? "Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."

Paul's response sounds an awful lot like what you call "the latest lie among Christians who want a nice cop-out for "unanswered" prayer, that "God wants us to become more like Jesus"!" Paul prayed to God thrice for relief, for healing, but God answered three times firmly "No!". Paul's prayer was answered, but with a "No". So Paul accepts it, takes pleasure in his affliction, because it will, in so many words, make him more Christlike. And because it was God's Will.

The Bible says very clearly that Jesus Christ paid for all sin and sickness on Calvary. If God then wants someone sick, then the Father and the Son is divided and not in agreement on this matter and that can never be.

Your reasoning simply does not match up. If God does not want anyone to be sick, then why are there sick people? If Jesus paid for all healing on the Cross, then why isn't everyone healed? It simply doesn't make any sense (given the common definition of God).

The explanation that follows is the worst sort of twisted logic and cognitive dissonance as to why there are people that are sick in spite of the fact that God doesn't want anyone to be sick, and why most aren't healed in spite of the fact that Jesus "paid" for all healing on the Cross.

God sent Jesus for the sinners and the sick to save them, and that He did on the Cross. Sickness is to the body as sin is to the soul. That is why Jesus gave His blood (for the sins of the world) and His body (for the sicknesses of the world). Now, through faith in that work on the Cross, those who believe has the power to be saved and healed in His name. If it does not happen, it is not God's fault, because He had done His part. Don't you see that it is up to the believers to press through in prayer, fasting and persistence untill their time of break-through has come?

WHY IS THAT SO, IF GOD DOESN'T WANT ANYONE TO BE SICK, AND IF JESUS "PAID" FOR ALL HEALING ON THE CROSS???

Forgive my shouting at you, but your explanation simply doesn't make any sense. If God doesn't want anyone to be sick, and if healing was paid on the Cross, then why does God require us to go through so many contortions, to do, say and believe just the right thing, to fast, pray for long periods, beseech God, etc etc etc until "their time of break-through has come"?

That is not a sensible requirement for God to impose on us if he doesn't want anyone to be sick, and if Jesus paid for all healing on the Cross!

To be honest with you, what it is is a "canned", ready-made explanation - a psychological out - as to why so many, many people are not healed - it's not God's fault, he wants to heal you; it's your fault - you haven't contorted and humbled and debased yourself in front of God enough to reach that "time of break-through"! A ready-made excuse for the lack of efficacy of prayer!

Jesus gives many ways how we should pray. Sometimes we have to praise God in spite of the circumstances and keep on untill the healing comes. How many believers do that? How many have the faith to see the Kingdom of God come in power? How many are prepared to go on a fast for a time of repentance untill they see the salvation of the Lord? How many really believe that God wants to heal them, in spite of what the doctors report say? How many will stay awake through the night to fast and pray for a loved one and praise God for His provision, even wwhen they see no change in the situation?

That's right...for those many cases where no healing comes, it's our fault. God really, really wants to heal us, but he can't or won't because we haven't fasted enough, haven' stayed up all night fasting and praying, haven't "repented" enough, haven't debased ourselves enough in his eyes, etc etc etc.

That's just sick, Carin. It's sick to assert that God won't heal, say, a terminally ill baby because the baby's parents haven't "fasted and prayed" enough! It would be cruel to assert that that was the case to the parents of a sick infant. If you pray enough, and in the right way, God will heal your baby! He wants to, but can't or won't unless you push the right buttons! And what if the baby dies? Would you tell the parents that their baby died even though God wanted to heal her for the reason that whatever they did, they did not do enough to achieve a break-through to God? That's despicable! It's cruel to the baby and, if I may say so, paints a cruel, mean image of God. I wonder what God, if he exists, thinks of someone that has that notion of Him, that he wants to heal, e.g. a sick baby, but won't do so unless the prayers please him in just the right way through their supplications?

In any case, I know of many cases where people, many people, have intensely prayed, fasted and so on for healing, for themselves and others. But to no avail. According to you, it's simply because they just weren't good enough at it to push the right buttons with God!

Push the right buttons...I like that. Your notion of Healing and the contortions God requires us to go through to get it makes God into a Heavenly Healing Vending Machine. The Vending Machine may or may not accept the coins you put in! If it doesn't like them, tough luck! No healing for you!

If believers will take God seriously at His word, and stop wanting fast results in this modern age where everything comes easy without sacrifice, we will see miracles and wonders and healings.

Aah, sacrifice! That's a good word. Nice and primitive. Sacrifice a cow or goat, and maybe God will heal you. I can hear a shaman telling that to a tribesman. But this is the "modern" age. We no longer think God requires sacrificing livestock to grant his boons to us (and the cows and goats are grateful for that). Now, we're "modern"; but we still need to sacrifice somehing (we're not so modern that we've given up the primitive notion that Gods require sacrifice from us! Just not goats), So we have to sacrifice something else. Stay up all night, fast for long enough, pray long enough, repent enough, etc etc. Do enough and maybe, just maybe, God will answer your prayer. He wants to heal you, but not so much that he'll just do it. You gotta really really really ask him to, and sacrifice a little something to him in the process.

And I note that you've pushed the notion that Jesus already paid for healing on the cross, along with the notion that God doesn't want anyone to be sick. But now what? NO! It's not paid for! God requires sacrifice from you to get your healing! You wouldn't expect God to just heal you without you sacrificing something, would you (even though he doesn't want you to be sick)? Oh, about that Jesus thing, he paid for it, but, umm, you still gotta pay if you want it. Makes sense, eh? :huh:

Sheesh, what torturous contortions of logic Christians go through to try to explain their theology, and the failures thereof (speaking there of the failure of healing - why there are sick, and why prayer is not effective).

That is what the believers do in the situations where there are miracles and healings taking place. That is what is happening in Bill Johnson's Church. There God honours the hearts of those believers who diligently seek Him, and not His gifts. That is what is happening in Prophet Joshua's Church in Nigeria. That is what is happening in KwasiZaBantu in KwaZulu Natal, South Africa where Erlo Stegers is seeing miracles on a regular basis.

So you give me the names of some Heavenly Healing Vending Machines. Mighty nice of you.

And the parents of a dead child in Peoria, who sincerely, beseechingly, and with all their hearts and hopes prayed for their child, who died anyway. Their efforts are just not good enough for God, I reckon. They didn't "do the right thing" in God's eyes.

And my son and niece, who prayed for the healing of their uncle and father, with childhood sincerity, belief, and hope, along with the rest of my family? My brother died. The prayers of my son and niece just weren't good enough for God, I assume? They didn't "sacrifice" enough? If they'd "done the things they do in the situations where there are miracles and healings taking place", whatever those particular contortions and "sacrifices" are, God would have healed their uncle, their father, my brother? Do you care to tell that to them, Carin? Would you tell that to my now 10-year-old son and 14-year old niece?

We see it more and more in our group as our faith is starting to grow by the healings that take place.

It's nice to know that some few people you're aware of have figured out exactly which coins to put into the Heavenly Healing Vending Machine. God must be rather sick by now of all those millions of people that have remained sick and dying for so long because people kept putting in the wrong coins! What with him not wanting anyone to be sick, and all that healing having supposedly already been paid for, and thus going to waste because people weren't "sacrificing" enough to pay for what had already been paid for!

Seriously, Carin, your notion is ridiculous, and disgusting, and disturbing. It does great disservice to both humans and God.

When a loved one dies after intensive prayer, it is a tragedy, and we feel like giving up, but it should actually make us more tenacious to find out where we have made our mistakes, because God has nothing to do with the death of that person.

Your brain doesn't explode from the cogintive dissonance when you say that? You've just gone on and on as to how God doesn't want anyone to be sick, and as to how Jesus already paid for healing on the Cross, but then you say God doesn't answer many if not most prayers because the prayers simply aren't sacrificing enough to push the right buttons with God, to pay for something that's supposedly already been paid for to accomlish something God allegedly wants to accomplish!

God would heal if we sacrificed enough. That need for sacrifice is something that (you believe) God has added to the miracle of healing. You gotta sacrifice to get it! It's our fault if we don't! But you say it's already paid for! So why the extra requirement of sacrifice? Why do we need to pay for something that Jesus supposedly already paid for?

God very much has something to do with "the death of that person" if someone prays and God doesn't heal, if it's within God's power to heal them. Just like a doctor would have very much to do with the death of a person if that person came to the doctor and asked for treatment, but the doctor refused because the person couldn't pay, or didn't ask in just the right way (and in your scenario, the doctor would have already been paid!)!

Wouldn't it be unreasonable, unethical, wrong for a doctor not to treat a sick person that it's within her power to treat if that person came to them and asked them for help, but didn't ask right, or didn't ask long enough, or didn't stay up all night fasting and beseeching the doctor for help? If the person didn't ask the doctor in the right manner for forgiveness for a past wrong, would the doctor be "off the hook" if the doctor refused to treat the person? If we found that out about a doctor, that for some such reason the doctor refused to treat a person and that person died, would we not at least in part blame the doctor for their death?

God did not originate sin, and He did not originate sickness. How then can it be His fault that people get sick?!

You say God does not want people to be sick. You say it's within God's power to heal all sickness. You say that Jesus paid for all healing on the cross (an odd notion that is in any case - that God would require payment for healing!). And yet, people are sick. People can only be sick in a world with such a God if it's within God's will that they be so!

If God has the power to heal all sickness, but does not, it's at least in part his fault that people are sick.

Your attempt to pass the blame off on someone else is simply an example of making excuses for God, as to why, if God is so powerful and loving and can heal, there are still sick people, as to why prayer seems to fail so consistently. It's their own fault! God's not so loving and powerful that he can heal just anyone that doesn't sacrifice enough to pay for their healing, even though the healing was supposedly already paid for!

Mageth

May 21, 2007, 07:29 PM

No, it's not. You don't understand. The believers who read this will probably don't feel like you about my statement. I don't mean it as an insult, but as a mere spiritual law in the kingdom of God. It is almost like a scientific law. When you lose your balance and fall, the laws of gravity works on your body so that you hit the ground hard and may hurt yourself. Who do you blame if you want to be fair? God?
He gave us the spiritual laws for healing and prayer and if we apply them correctly, they will work or not. Same thing. Who do we blame? God?

Drop the comparison to scientific law. What you describe has absolutely no foundation in reason. It does a disservice to reason to compare your "Heavenly Healing Vending Machine" notion to science.

It's not science, it's a form of very primitive magic. Make the right sacrifice to God, and God may, just may, grant you a boon. Actually, you seem to be implying that God will grant you a boon, if you follow the "spiritual law of healing" just right. It's a very primitive form of magic you're describing - a form where God can be manipulated if just the right invocations and rituals are performed. If you try, but God doesn't answer, then it's your fault; you didn't say the invocations right or got the rituals wrong! That's no different than a form of Shamanism.

The same with reaping and sowing.

Another one of those "Biblical Principles" that doesn't work as promised, and therefore Christians have to make up reasons as to why it doesn't, and as to why it's not God's fault that it doesn't!

Christians don't understand that. We don't want to follow the rules, but want quick results.
Faith is a spiritual law that works agaisnst our natural mind, and that is why it is so difficult for modern man to operate out of faith.

Further description of a very primitive form of formulatic magic. Get the magic incantations down just right, and you will see results! You don't see results, it's your fault!

That story is older than Christmas.

In Africa we see more miracles than in the West. It's a fact. It's beginning to change, however as we are beginning to learn the basic principles of the Word on faith and healing.

There's a reason what you've described has fallen out of favor. Again, you're talking about a primitive form of manipulative magic. Theologically, it was abandoned centuries ago. Why? Because it doesn't work. And because it's demeaning to both humans and any decent notion of God. It turns God into a Heavenly Healing Vending Machine. Put in the right coins, and out comes your healing!

With sick babies it works exactly the same.

That's right. If you put the wrong coins into the Heavenly Healing Vending Machine, your baby will die! Sorry, but that's the way Carin Nel pictures God as working!

That's an absolutely disgusting notion of God.

...but when a baby dies, God takes him home to heaven immediately, as he was not old enough to make a responsible decision to believe or not.

Well, isn't that nice of God! You've provided a nice "out" for God when babies die! God takes them to heaven! That may give some little comfort to the parents if you tell them that right after you tell them that God let their baby die when he would have healed her and saved her life if they'd just made the right sacrifices to him! That it's their fault that their baby died!

God, if He exists, must cringe when he hears such nonsense spoken in His name.

TomboyMom

May 21, 2007, 07:44 PM

Carin, think hard before you answer this one: Do you think that the people that your church prays for get better at any greater rate than people whom are not prayed for? Do you think that your prayer increases, decreases, or has no effect on their chances of improvement?

Vicious Love

May 21, 2007, 07:55 PM

If I may add something small to that truly magnificent rant?

Carin, you believe that babies who die are immediately transported to Heaven. You also believe, unless yours is an extremely unorthodox sect of Christianity, that Heaven is the best place a soul could possibly be.

It seems to me that the inescapable conclusion is that infant death is the best thing that can possibly happen to a person. Instant Heaven, without precisely zero probability of eternal damnation. Am I correct in this assessment? Do dead babies have it that much better than the rest of us?

Johann Sin

May 21, 2007, 07:57 PM

Where do you get this revelation from?
I said that God died for everyone. If you believe that, you can be healed.
If a believer prays for an unbeliever, that unbeliever could be healed because of the prayer of the believer.
Why should someone get healed if he does not want to ask the Healer?

God says in His word that if you seek you shall find.
If an unbeliever does not believe in God, then obviously he will not ask God to heal him, not so?
What's your problem?

Regards,
Carin

Is it not pretty obvious? To be omnipotent, one must be able to do anything. If there are things which one can't do, one is NOT omnipotent.

You are simply re-enforcing your assertion that God cannot heal unbelievers.

Therefore god is NOT omnipotent.

1. God is omnipotent i.e. he CAN heal unbelievers.

2. God CAN'T heal unbelievers i.e. God is NOT omnipotent.

The above 2 is mutually exclusive. Make your choice.

If an unbeliever does not believe in God, then obviously he will not ask God to heal him, not so?

It is of no consequences who is doing the asking. Omnipotent or not omnipotent?

modernPrimitive

May 22, 2007, 02:31 AM

God did not originate sin, and He did not originate sickness. How then can it be His fault that people get sick?!

This is a very nieve point of view Carin. If God created everything and is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient etc then God DID create suffering, sickness, "sin" etc, even if it manifests via an entity that is presumed separate from God. ("Shaitan" etc)

Look at nature in it's "natural state" - go up to the Kruger Park for a weekend. What we nievely interpret as evil is simply a natural occurance in Nature. Elephants get illnesses, they grow old and are kicked out of their "clan", Hyena like to eat the tender flesh off live antelope calflings. Nature is harsh - this is not "evil", it is simply Nature and so it is with humans (for the most part)

"Satan", "evil", "Beelzebub" etc are nice terms that we like to use to escape the harshness of reality, to create a hopeful place (paradise) in our minds. If you believe that God is not the origininator of "evil" then you do not believe in an omnipotent creator-God, originator of All things, but rather some fantasy God that works well as a psychological security blanket.

It is true that suffering and disease is natural and it is true that we can accelerate the bodies natural healing abilities through our minds but we simply cannot defy natural law. "Evil" exists naturally in Nature and should be embraced as part of the whole. The "evil" of demon-posession simply results from imbalances ("true evil") in the depths of the human psyche and exorcism is a psycho-spiritual practice that can sometimes restore these imbalances temporarily or completely.

pob14

May 22, 2007, 08:40 AM

pob14

May 22, 2007, 08:47 AM

Carin, please answer these questions directly and simply, and I'll have a follow-up.

1) Is it your belief that prayer by a sufficiently faithful believer can heal an unbeliever?

2) Is it your belief that "heal" means miraculous, instantaneous correction of a potentially life-threatening condition, without limitation as to what that condition is?

3) Is it your belief that this can be done without personal, physical contact between the believer and the unbeliever?

4) Is it your belief that you, personally, have sufficient faith to do this (that you are a "sufficiently faithful believer" as described in #1)?

TomboyMom

May 22, 2007, 02:31 PM

That is not Scriptural. Just because the person died does not mean that God did not want to heal the person. If a person "has to remain sick because it's God's "plan" - (the latest lie among Christians who wants a nice cop-out for "unanswered" prayer, is , "God wants us to become more like Jesus"!) then the intensive care units in the hospitals should be filled with patients singing constant songs of praise to God!! How rediculous!!
The Bible says very clearly that Jesus Christ paid for all sin and sickness on Calvary. If God then wants someone sick, then the Father and the Son is divided and not in agreement on this matter and that can never be. God sent Jesus for the sinners and the sick to save them, and that He did on the Cross. Sickness is to the body as sin is to the soul. That is why Jesus gave His blood (for the sins of the world) and His body (for the sicknesses of the world). Now, through faith in that work on the Cross, those who believe has the power to be saved and healed in His name. If it does not happen, it is not God's fault, because He had done His part. Don't you see that it is up to the believers to press through in prayer, fasting and persistence untill their time of break-through has come? Jesus gives many ways how we should pray. Sometimes we have to praise God in spite of the circumstances and keep on untill the healing comes. How many believers do that? How many have the faith to see the Kingdom of God come in power? How many are prepared to go on a fast for a time of repentance untill they see the salvation of the Lord? How many really believe that God wants to heal them, in spite of what the doctors report say? How many will stay awake through the night to fast and pray for a loved one and praise God for His provision, even wwhen they see no change in the situation?
If believers will take God seriously at His word, and stop wanting fast results in this modern age where everything comes easy without sacrifice, we will see miracles and wonders and healings. That is what the believers do in the situations where there are miracles and healings taking place. That is what is happening in Bill Johnson's Church. There God honours the hearts of those believers who diligently seek Him, and not His gifts. That is what is happening in Prophet Joshua's Church in Nigeria. That is what is happening in KwasiZaBantu in KwaZulu Natal, South Africa where Erlo Stegers is seeing miracles on a regular basis.
We see it more and more in our group as our faith is starting to grow by the healings that take place.
When a loved one dies after intensive prayer, it is a tragedy, and we feel like giving up, but it should actually make us more tenacious to find out where we have made our mistakes, because God has nothing to do with the death of that person.
God did not originate sin, and He did not originate sickness. How then can it be His fault that people get sick?!

No, it's not. You don't understand. The believers who read this will probably don't feel like you about my statement. I don't mean it as an insult, but as a mere spiritual law in the kingdom of God. It is almost like a scientific law. When you lose your balance and fall, the laws of gravity works on your body so that you hit the ground hard and may hurt yourself. Who do you blame if you want to be fair? God?
He gave us the spiritual laws for healing and prayer and if we apply them correctly, they will work or not. Same thing. Who do we blame? God?
The same with reaping and sowing.
Christians don't understand that. We don't want to follow the rules, but want quick results.
Faith is a spiritual law that works agaisnst our natural mind, and that is why it is so difficult for modern man to operate out of faith.
In Africa we see more miracles than in the West. It's a fact. It's beginning to change, however as we are beginning to learn the basic principles of the Word on faith and healing.

With sick babies it works exactly the same. but when a baby dies, God takes him home to heaven immediately, as he was not old enough to make a responsible decision to believe or not.

Regards,
Carin Nel

Carin: little hint about your audience. We're not believers who don't share the correct your personal understanding of scripture. We're atheists. We don't believe that God wants some people to be sick; we don't believe there is a God. What we're trying to communicate to you is that faith healing doesn't work. People who are prayed for do not get better at any greater rate than people who are not prayed for. That's why God doesn't heal amputees; He doesn't exist. Now, what's your explanation? Amputees simply have less faith than people with headaches?

RAFH

May 22, 2007, 02:50 PM

I knew it! I almost created Satan once with my chemistry set, but I forgot the ouija board and ended up with nothing but a three-assed monkey.

Cool!! Tres Chic!

As they say, "Better Living Through Chemistry".

SophistiCat

May 23, 2007, 08:36 AM

It's not science, it's a form of very primitive magic. Make the right sacrifice to God, and God may, just may, grant you a boon. Actually, you seem to be implying that God will grant you a boon, if you follow the "spiritual law of healing" just right. It's a very primitive form of magic you're describing - a form where God can be manipulated if just the right invocations and rituals are performed. If you try, but God doesn't answer, then it's your fault; you didn't say the invocations right or got the rituals wrong! That's no different than a form of Shamanism.

It may be even more primitive than that.

Superstition in the Pigeon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._F._Skinner#Superstition_in_the_Pigeon):

One of Skinner's experiments examined the formation of superstition in one of his favorite experimental animals, the pigeon. Skinner placed a series of hungry pigeons in a cage attached to an automatic mechanism that delivered food to the pigeon "at regular intervals with no reference whatsoever to the bird's behavior". He discovered that the pigeons associated the delivery of the food with whatever chance actions they had been performing as it was delivered, and that they subsequently continued to perform these same actions.

Skinner suggested that the pigeons believed that they were influencing the automatic mechanism with their "rituals" and that this experiment shed light on human behavior

Full text of this classic 1948 paper here (http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Skinner/Pigeon/).

pob14

May 24, 2007, 12:07 PM

Carin, please answer these questions directly and simply, and I'll have a follow-up.
Did I scare Carin off? Carin hasn't posted since.

RAFH

May 24, 2007, 12:21 PM

Did I scare Carin off? Carin hasn't posted since.

I don't think you can claim the honors, if there are any to be claimed, Carin has gone silent before.

But if Carin has departed I'd have to say the honor has to go to sometimesisquint :

No. It's ludicrous and indicative of the superstitious idiocy inherent in much of the human race.

sometimes' post above was the first post following Carin's last post.

Then again, the next dozen or so posts from Tomboymom, myself, Godless Dave, Mageth (certainly with the best pair), Vicious Love, Johann Sin, Modern Primitive, yourself and Sophisticat were quite a salvo.

However, I'm betting Carin will return. Not anything of value, just a bet.

pob14

May 24, 2007, 03:37 PM

I don't think you can claim the honors, if there are any to be claimed, Carin has gone silent before.
I forgot the smiley. I didn't really think my question in the middle of all that drove Carin off.

Gawen

May 24, 2007, 07:51 PM

I forgot the smiley. I didn't really think my question in the middle of all that drove Carin off.Last year, I gave Carin 33 Biblical contradictions. I told her to take her time. If I remember right, she tried her best at three of them right after I posted them. Then she went away. When she came back recently, I saw her name and thought...OH BOY!!! She's come back with the other 30 contradictions. But alas.....I still wait.

RAFH

May 24, 2007, 09:37 PM

Last year, I gave Carin 33 Biblical contradictions. I told her to take her time. If I remember right, she tried her best at three of them right after I posted them. Then she went away. When she came back recently, I saw her name and thought...OH BOY!!! She's come back with the other 30 contradictions. But alas.....I still wait.

How'd Carin do on the three that were addressed?

Oh yeah, don't forget to breathe while you are waiting.

Gawen

May 25, 2007, 06:51 AM

How'd Carin do on the three that were addressed?

Oh yeah, don't forget to breathe while you are waiting.I don't remember...other than the usual apologetics. I can't even remember which 3 she picked. But I still have the contradictions handy if she's willing to take another stab at it.

As for breathing, I had hoped, with her fervent belief, she would have discussed these contradictions. It would have made a good thread....in GRD at least.

Carin Nel

July 8, 2007, 11:33 AM

Another healing. O well, this you won't believe either, but I'll give you the link anyway.

http://www.breakingchristiannews.com/articles/display_art_pf.html?ID=4141

Regards,
Carin Nel

KLK

July 8, 2007, 11:55 AM

Yup, total bullshit. Were this true do you not think that this woman would not have returned to one of her supposed doctors by now and that they would have reported the 'miracle' to the AMA or the media? Would not her daughter--or any of the, I'm sure, many people this woman knows not done so?

No, instead a nameless woman, seen by nameless doctors, having recieved nameless 'surgeries' for a nameless 'infection' is cured and this 'miracle' is ONLY reported on, where?--you guessed it--a christianist website.

The crap you people will buy into with scarcely a second thought is astounding.

Vicious Love

July 8, 2007, 05:23 PM

Steven Zarit, of Global Awakening, was excited to report that another [unnamed] woman, who had been born deaf, received a healing in her ears

Ewww...

Edit: C'mon, people! Surely I'm not the only person to whom "faith healing" immediately connotates "sexual abuse of the gullible"? And I, for one, do not relish the thought of cleaning healing out of my ears.

pob14

July 8, 2007, 06:35 PM

Goathead

July 8, 2007, 06:48 PM

Funny how miracles like that have become more common at the same time medical technology related to premature births has advanced.

You credit that my child was ok because of technology. He was not hooked up to anything. He never was. His initial vitals were bad, he wasn't breathing good. They did the equivalent to mouth to mouth with that pump thing, i don't know the name I am tired. Then he was ok. He started to cry. almost a month early and that is all it took and you want to credit the technology? I could see if he was in an incubator and on life support. I mean, you act like it is common for nothing more to be wrong. Which would be like a shrug of the shoulders. Which to me is taken it rather lightly. Which is why I say, I guess when you are not there watching it happen to your child, you might shrug your shoulders at it. If you are in the position ever or know someone who is in the position (God forbid) of a child being born premature, you will see it rarely works out so dandy with little intervention.

Sorry i read most of the thread but had to reply to this; my sister ws born 3 weeks pre. with a stroke and her twin sister did not survive the birth.

It happens, and apart from accepting as nature what happened my options are to believe that god decided one is better than nothing, he decided one girl was not worth saving, he didnt do shit and it just worked out likt this or there is no God.

I know there is no god, i also know ppl who pray to Thor, Satan and IPU(seriously) and they ALL claim to have recieved divine favour form respected deities/parodies.

My point? i believe you may be a very nice person, but dont sell your childs will to live short by heaping praise on God, praise human ability and enjoy your child. :)

Headache

July 8, 2007, 07:30 PM

Another healing. O well, this you won't believe either, but I'll give you the link anyway.

http://www.breakingchristiannews.com/articles/display_art_pf.html?ID=4141

Regards,
Carin Nel

For this experiment, we need to find a deserving person who has had both of his legs amputated. For example, find a sincere, devout veteran of the Iraqi war, or a person who was involved in a tragic automobile accident.
...
If possible, get millions of people all over the planet to join the prayer circle and pray their most fervent prayers. Get millions of people praying in unison for a single miracle for this one deserving amputee. Then stand back and watch.

What is going to happen? Jesus clearly says that if you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. He does not say it once -- he says it many times in many ways in the Bible.

And yet, even with millions of people praying, nothing will happen.

When you me bring a story about an amputee with a regrown leg, I'll talk to you...

atrib

July 9, 2007, 11:14 AM

Another healing. O well, this you won't believe either, but I'll give you the link anyway.

http://www.breakingchristiannews.com/articles/display_art_pf.html?ID=4141

Regards,
Carin Nel

I'm convinced. I've been wearing corrective lenses since I was 5 and I have grown tired of them. When is the next flight to Bethlehem, PA? One question before I leave; are vision corrections guaranteed for a lifetime, or will an annual subscription be required?

pob14

July 10, 2007, 10:52 AM

http://www.globalawakening.com/Publisher/Article.aspx?id=1000016399Another healing. O well, this you won't believe either, but I'll give you the link anyway.

http://www.breakingchristiannews.com/articles/display_art_pf.html?ID=4141

Regards,
Carin Nel
There's a video interview with this woman at this link: http://www.globalawakening.com/Publisher/Article.aspx?id=1000016399

I didn't watch the whole thing; it's 20 minutes long and I'm at work. Impressions of the first six minutes or so:

Although the interviewer keeps saying she was "totally blind", that's not what the translator reports her as saying; she says she saw light and dark before, and afterwards could see shapes. I wish I spoke better Spanish; there are some moments when the translator doesn't seem to be saying quite what the woman is saying, but even as reported, it doesn't seem to be quite the miraculous healing the article suggested. (The interviewer suggests that she can put her white cane away for safekeeping, but her statements don't indicate she sees well enough for that.)

Her vision also got better and worse throughout the prayer service, and she was not asked (in the part I saw) whether that had happened before with her condition.

Taking the whole thing at face value, it appears that all God was able to do for her was to make her vision slightly, intermittently better. Sorry, atrib, but you may have to settle for cranking the diopter down a couple of notches.

Carin, is that what you're suggesting God is capable of? Or was this woman's faith (or the faith of those praying for her) insufficient for a full cure?

And do you have answers for my four questions above yet? The ones at this post, that is:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=4474589#post4474589 .

pob14

July 13, 2007, 08:48 AM

Carin?

Taking your time, thinking about your responses? Good. Hope to hear from you soon.

Stephen T-B

July 13, 2007, 03:29 PM

So, back to the boy with the hurt neck who was cured after Carin prayed for him/it.
I wonder, did God need the boy's attention to be drawn to him?
Being all-knowing, did he not already know he had a bed neck?
Was he just waiting for someone like Carin to come along and ask for him to make it better?
If no-one had, would that boy's neck still be hurting him?

Why isn't it that this God does anything all by itself; why does it need a human to pray for a healing? Doesn't it see the problem?

And why does it cure a boy's bad neck, but lets a thousand, perhaps 10,000 people - all being prayed for - die?

I am very puzzled by your God, Carin.