I think I'm a theist.

[Hedshaker]

I have no desire to become a fundamentalist again, I am even hesitant to becoming Christian.

Could subscribing to liberal Christianity possibly be the start of that slippery slope for you? Like the ex-smoker thinking he can have just the occasional cigarette, or the reformed alcoholic deciding he can drink socially, just at weekends? After all, a lot of people can have a drink and the odd ciggy without getting blind drunk or caning 2 or 3 packs a day, right? just like some people manage to sustain liberal Christian beliefs without becoming fundies. It sure looks easy, doesn't it? All you have to do is cherry pick the bits you like and ignore the rest or bury yourself so deep in apologetics that you forget what the problem was in the first place :D

I suspect you're saying no, and you should know. To be honest I don't understand why you would even consider Christianity. You know that dead people do not reanimate after being clinically dead for three days. You know that virgins didn't give birth 2000 years ago. Those things didn't happen and you know that.

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Ben Franklin

Have you considered Taoism or Buddhism? All the spiritual stuff you want without the absurdity of trying to force fit an invisibe sky daddy into reality :huh:

[Jedi Mind Trick]

Have you considered Taoism or Buddhism? All the spiritual stuff you want without the absurdity of trying to force fit an invisibe sky daddy into reality :huh:

I'm shying away from christianity... and I have thought about buddhism but I am so far behind the learning curve. Christianity is what I know, or at least I think I do. :) anyway, I'm not a christian I'm more of a pantheist, if I am a theist at all. As some have noted in this thread, I am prettymuch confused.

[angela2]

I know, I get causght up in labels... maybe I'm obsessive about these matters?
I agree with southern. Find a a church, liberal, tolerant, with real people who will love you and whom you can love in return. No internet forum is a good substitute.

[Hedshaker]

As some have noted in this thread, I am pretty much confused.

What about Confucianism then :D

[Steve Schlicht]

Try being your own church for awhile, Blackwater, and see how it goes.

Love people and you may find love in return.

In my view, it takes actual work though...it isn't just a matter of waking up one day and saying "I'm an [X], now!" in order to "feel better".

Being overly cerebral about life, the universe and everything is just sloshing juice around in your brain.

Direct experience is the key to hope.

And hope is the foundation for life.

:wave:

Steve

[Jedi Mind Trick]

What about Confucianism then :D:D

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

BW,

You can TRY alot of things, but just remember 2 Tim 4:3ff "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of texacheers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations..."

Myths may be enjoyable at times to read, (or even to participate in), but they can be misleading and dangerous to follow.

[Y.B]

Myths may be enjoyable at times to read, (or even to participate in), but they can be misleading and dangerous to follow.

The irony is strong on this one. :D

[No Robots]

How can Christ be an atheist and sit on the divine throne?

Christian religion is the divinization of an atheist. In Brunner's words, people made into a god he whom they despised as a man. What's more, Christ deliberately evaporated the god of superstition and put himself in his place:

Ultimately, in the Christianity of Christ, at the high point of Judaism, the word goes forth: Get up, God, from your throne, and let man, the true man, sit down! Christ is the true man, the spiritualized, mystical man, transfigured in holy freedom, by whom mankind is being bound anew to the Spirit (Our Christ, p. 305).

[Jedi Mind Trick]

BW,

You can TRY alot of things, but just remember 2 Tim 4:3ff "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of texacheers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations..."

Myths may be enjoyable at times to read, (or even to participate in), but they can be misleading and dangerous to follow.
Timothy was likely not written by the apostle Paul. As such, the pastorals and this passage seem to be an attempt by the orthodox church to do polemics against the growing gnostic movement.

[Stephen T-B]

Everyone to his own.
It does, however, seem to me that religious beliefs (when they are consciously held and not just a matter of habit) occupy a part of the brain (the "Religious Quarter") which is separated from the rest of the brain by a deep moat, and connected to it by a single narrow drawbridge.
The citizens of the Religious Quarter from time to time send out a small group of envoys who roam around the rest of the brain trying to work up some support, but always to no effect. In fact the citizens of the rest of the brain come out of their houses when they hear them in the street and start chucking rotten apples and chairs at them. So the envoys hurry back to the Religious Quarter and having crossed the drawbridge, thankfully see it being raised behind them - and their erstwhile persurers standing on the far side of the moat, shaking their fists and yelling imprecations at them.

[Withered]

Myths may be enjoyable at times to read, (or even to participate in), but they can be misleading and dangerous to follow.

This is more than ironic, it is sad. Sad on some level i can't understand.
Still no evidence that the bible is correct. Still no evidence that the god of the bible exists in anyplace but the minds of the deluded. And everything else must be a myth because....?

Because the unproven, innacurate, contradictory, and ridiculous bible says so.

Sad.

[Hedshaker]

Myths may be enjoyable at times to read, (or even to participate in), but they can be misleading and dangerous to follow.

Right out of the horses mouth. So sweet. So unsubtle. I have no idea what sort of dark irony is this but it certainly brought a smile to my lips.

Very funny Tim :notworthy:

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

Timothy was likely not written by the apostle Paul. As such, the pastorals and this passage seem to be an attempt by the orthodox church to do polemics against the growing gnostic movement.

While I disagree with you, regardless of its purpose and author, the truth remains. The question is... will you heed it?

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

The reality remains: Apart from Christ, your situation as you describe it does not seem very desirable. Will you continue down this path, and experience more of the same, or is it time for a change?

[Jedi Mind Trick]

While I disagree with you, regardless of its purpose and author, the truth remains. The question is... will you heed it?
Heed a work that is doubtful of authenticity and clearly propaganda; competitive in nature?
And even if it is authentic, who is Paul? How can I know he had revelation from God? Because he says so? Well so did Mohammad and Zoroaster and Moses and Bahaula.

One perk from having been non-theist for a space of time was that it helped me get rid of superstitious fears of damnation and an obsessive compulsive need to have everything just right, as in “the absolutely right truth from god.”

I’m not concerned about that… I merely look at the universe and my surroundings and have a spiritual hunch about it all. Call it what you will.

[JamesBannon]

Well done Blackwater. Quite apart from your own answer is the disengenuity of Tim's reply. We have a person who is struggling with some personal issues and our resident Calvinist takes the opportunity to produce a sermon instead of trying to help. Typical.

[sharon45]

While I disagree with you, regardless of its purpose and author, the truth remains. The question is... will you heed it?Again, your own version of the truth.

[Lógos Sokratikós]

Well done Blackwater. Quite apart from your own answer is the disengenuity of Tim's reply. We have a person who is struggling with some personal issues and our resident Calvinist takes the opportunity to produce a sermon instead of trying to help. Typical.

Ouch.


:blush:
L.S.

[Lixma]

While I disagree with you, regardless of its purpose and author, the truth remains. The question is... will you heed it?

The reality remains: Apart from Christ, your situation as you describe it does not seem very desirable. Will you continue down this path, and experience more of the same, or is it time for a change?

My God. You have absolutely nothing to offer, do you?

Your entire "wisdom" is based around the tactic of ignoring valid criticism and replying with threats of eternal damnation. You can't provide any support for your constant assertions of truth but this doesn't seem to bother you....you just stick your fingers in your ears and keep on preachin'.

I don't know what's more depressing; the fact that you've made a profession out of such base hucksterism or that people are stupid enough to accept it. Do you sell "miracle water" by any chance?

[Jedi Mind Trick]

I do not deny that the gospel is offensive to some. (2 Cor 2:16)

Some who accept the gospel fail to go so far as to embrace Calvinism.

When it comes to basic gospel itself, you tell me, do you meet the requirements of God, or is there a fly in the soup?
So the problem is with me and not the soup, eh?

Sorry Tim I don't buy it.

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

BW,

It appears you have chosen to continue on your own (apart from Christ), even though by your own admission it's not been going well for you.

I leave you with the counsel of Psalm 1. May these words continue to abide with you, that perhaps at some point in the future, you might turn and come under the protection and blessing of the Lord.

"Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers. But his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in season and whose leaf does not wither. Whatever he does prospers. Not so the wicked! They are like chaff that the wind blows away. Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous. For the Lord watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish."

[Jedi Mind Trick]

BW,

It appears you have chosen to continue on your own (apart from Christ), even though by your own admission it's not been going well for you.

I leave you with the counsel of Psalm 1. May these words continue to abide with you, that perhaps at some point in the future, you might turn and come under the protection and blessing of the Lord.

"Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers. But his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in season and whose leaf does not wither. Whatever he does prospers. Not so the wicked! They are like chaff that the wind blows away. Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous. For the Lord watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish."

Give me one good reason why I should return to a life that had me even more frustrated and confused than I am now.

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

Give me one good reason why I should return to a life that had me even more frustrated and confused than I am now.

The psalm provides several reasons.

You've not convinced me you have believed on Christ.

I call you not just to the life you once lived, but to Christ (and the new life found in him.)

[Jedi Mind Trick]

The psalm provides several reasons.

You've not convinced me you have believed on Christ.

I call you not just to the life you once lived, but to Christ (and the new life found in him.)
Frankly, Tim... I don't care if you think I was never a christian. I know what my experience was and at one time I was on this board handing out all the same set of items you are handing out now, to me. I know I was a very convinced christian, as such, I also know exaclty why it is your need to deny me that.

[Rev. Timothy G. Muse]

Frankly, Tim... I don't care if you think I was never a christian. I know what my experience was and at one time I was on this board handing out all the same set of items you are handing out now, to me. I know I was a very convinced christian, as such, I also know exaclty why it is your need to deny me that.

I wish you the best.
If you change your mind and ever want to talk in the future, let me know.

BW,

It appears you have chosen to continue on your own (apart from Christ), even though by your own admission it's not been going well for you.

I leave you with the counsel of Psalm 1. May these words continue to abide with you, that perhaps at some point in the future, you might turn and come under the protection and blessing of the Lord.

"Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers. But his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in season and whose leaf does not wither. Whatever he does prospers. Not so the wicked! They are like chaff that the wind blows away. Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous. For the Lord watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish."

[sharon45]

That Psalm might be good poetry, but it sorely lacking as a realistic observance of the world's conflicts whereas supposed righteousness and supposed evil are fairly evenly matched.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

I wish you the best.
If you change your mind and ever want to talk in the future, let me know.
Thanks Tim.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

Just to clarify my position and to update this thread. I said in this thread that I am a theist… well that has changed... I am rather a Pantheist (http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/PANTHEISM.html). I am not at all comfortable with theism… many of the arguments against it that I read here make sense to me. I was just trying to find something I could hold on to for support during what is a hard time in my life. I’ve been under a lot of stress lately. Anyway, I can not be called a theist. I have reverence for nature and the universe and I believe that in some sense all things are one. So I am a pantheist.

[HiddenWolf]

Since not all pantheists share the same views, could you describe a little 'your' pantheism?

[lpetrich]

Constantin Brunner is the greatest thinker of the twentieth century.
LOL
What gives you that idea?

Christ, according to Brunner, was a man, a prophet, a mystic, a genius, an atheist.
An atheist?
:rolling:
Need I say more?

[geddit?]

Constantin Brunner is the greatest thinker of the twentieth century.


In your humble opinion? ;)

He's not easy to digest(for me),
and Uncle Albert had problems with him as well.

Side note: a new Einstein bio is coming out next spring - supposedly giving a clearer picture of his philosophical outlook. We'll see....


geddit?

[No Robots]

In your humble opinion? ;)

He's not easy to digest(for me),
and Uncle Albert had problems with him as well.

Side note: a new Einstein bio is coming out next spring - supposedly giving a clearer picture of his philosophical outlook. We'll see....

Wow! You actually looked into this. Man, there is so much to say about the Einstein-Brunner connection. A quick summary would be to say that Brunner construed modern philosophy as a life-and-death struggle between the thought of Spinoza and the thought of Kant; whereas Einstein tried to bridge the gap between these two.

There are a couple of mildly amusing stories about near-contact between Brunner and Einstein. They were once together in the same cloakroom: and they were both invited to the same dinner party; but Brunner, typically, refused to go.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

Since not all pantheists share the same views, could you describe a little 'your' pantheism?
Sorry to take so long in replying to your question...

I am probably what would be called a classical pantheist in that I believe in an impersonal force called "god" "Brahman" etc. Actually I haven’t decided if this force is personal or not. But I am not a natural pantheist or atheistic pantheist; I like the concept of all things being one and a part of the greater whole. Do I know that this is a fact of the nature of things? No, I do not. It is a philosophy that I like and it brings me some comfort to think about things in this manner.

I've said elsewhere that I am really just confused about things. I think like an atheist in many ways, especially when it comes to fundamentalist religion, but I feel like a theist.

Maybe it is all just emotional need and someday I will grow out of it and become a full fledged atheist like many of you.

Okay, tell you a little secret that I have been withholding in this thread... The reason I've been withholding it is because I didn't want it to be challenged or made fun of... but I have been reading about Near Death Experiences and have found them to be, admitted superficially, convincing. There are a number of accounts that have been given by seemingly sincere people and they have some very remarkable things to say. Some of these accounts are very convincing and their rebuttals to the "dieing brain theory" seem compelling as well. I've read some skeptical rebuttals to NDEs and they are good but they don't explain some of the veridical NDEs like shared NDEs and NDEs that involve information that could not have been known to the experiencer from his/her physical location. Other veridical NDEs involve Blind people seeing for the first time during their NDE and describing accurately their surroundings.

[Ramen]

Buddhists' telos is different from Christians'. The former seek nirvana, a great nothingness. For some Christians that describes hell.

Buddhists think creation is something to be escaped. They think of it as hindering them from their final goal. Christians believe God created the world, speaks to us through it, and look forward to creation's recreation along with their own.

Rather large differences such as these make a preference easy.

Me, I'll take communion with God and all creation anytime.

Buddhism is Not what one merely thinks...

The First Precept:

Do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory, or ideology, even Buddhist ones. All systems of thought are guiding means: they are not absolute truth.

The Second Precept:

Do not think the knowledge you presently possess is changeless, absolute truth. Avoid being narrow-minded and bound to present views. Learn and practice non-attachment from views in order to be open to receive others' viewpoints. Truth is found in life and not merely in conceptual knowledge. Be ready to learn throughout your entire life and to observe reality in yourself and in the world at all times.

The Third Precept:

Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever,
to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda
or even education. However, through compassionate dialogue, help
others renounce fanaticism and narrowness.