PDA

View Full Version : If God does not exist, then everything is permitted


PoodleLovinPessimist
November 27, 2005, 08:04 AM
This quotation, often erronously attributed to Dostoevsky (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/cortesi1.htm), is, nevertheless "an accurate capsule description of the belief espoused by Ivan Karamazov in the early chapters of The Brothers Karamazov."

And this statement bears close examination, because it appears to be true.

Well, almost true. It is not possible to be actually contradictory, and it is impossible to violate true physical law. We will have to understand the implicit qualifier that everything physically possible is permitted.

And this is simply true. Without god, we can do as we please: We can work on Sunday, or watch football instead of going to church. We can eat pork. We can create images of whatever we please. We can build buildings as high as physical law allows. A guy can fuck another guy in the ass. I can live in a commune with nine wives. Everything is permissible.

Of course everything is permissible: If someone wants to kill other people, he can; no god is going to punish him. If he wants to molest children, he can. If it is his will to commit an atrocity (an action most people would find utterly atrocious and horrific) he can. It is very important to note that this is observably true: People do in fact murder, they do in fact molest children, they do in fact commit atrocity.

Of course everything is permissible: If someone wants to hunt down people who kill others, who molest children, who commit atrocities, and kill them or imprison them, he can do that too.

Of course everything is permissible: If someone wants to enslave his will to that of another, living or dead, and call that self-enslavement loyalty or dedication to God, he can do that as well.

The message, "If God does not exist, then everything is permitted," is a message not of comfort, but of freedom: We are free to do as we please. It is also a message of responsibility: If we are to have what we want, it is we ourselves who must make it happen. If we want to have a society free of murder, we cannot count on a god to make it so; we must ourselves choose to hunt down murderers and imprison them. We cannot rely the justice of a god, we must create our own justice. We cannot count on either the fear or support of a god, we must count on the fear and support of each other. And we cannot count on a god to tell us what is right or wrong. We have to create right and wrong ourselves.

Yes, if a god does not exist, then everything is "permitted". But only that which each person permits himself, and what we permit each other.

David B
November 27, 2005, 05:37 PM
This quotation, often erronously attributed to Dostoevsky (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/cortesi1.htm), is, nevertheless "an accurate capsule description of the belief espoused by Ivan Karamazov in the early chapters of The Brothers Karamazov."

And this statement bears close examination, because it appears to be true.

Well, almost true. It is not possible to be actually contradictory, and it is impossible to violate true physical law. We will have to understand the implicit qualifier that everything physically possible is permitted.

And this is simply true. Without god, we can do as we please: We can work on Sunday, or watch football instead of going to church. We can eat pork. We can create images of whatever we please. We can build buildings as high as physical law allows. A guy can fuck another guy in the ass. I can live in a commune with nine wives. Everything is permissible.

Of course everything is permissible: If someone wants to kill other people, he can; no god is going to punish him. If he wants to molest children, he can. If it is his will to commit an atrocity (an action most people would find utterly atrocious and horrific) he can. It is very important to note that this is observably true: People do in fact murder, they do in fact molest children, they do in fact commit atrocity.

Of course everything is permissible: If someone wants to hunt down people who kill others, who molest children, who commit atrocities, and kill them or imprison them, he can do that too.

Of course everything is permissible: If someone wants to enslave his will to that of another, living or dead, and call that self-enslavement loyalty or dedication to God, he can do that as well.

The message, "If God does not exist, then everything is permitted," is a message not of comfort, but of freedom: We are free to do as we please. It is also a message of responsibility: If we are to have what we want, it is we ourselves who must make it happen. If we want to have a society free of murder, we cannot count on a god to make it so; we must ourselves choose to hunt down murderers and imprison them. We cannot rely the justice of a god, we must create our own justice. We cannot count on either the fear or support of a god, we must count on the fear and support of each other. And we cannot count on a god to tell us what is right or wrong. We have to create right and wrong ourselves.

Yes, if a god does not exist, then everything is "permitted". But only that which each person permits himself, and what we permit each other.

Everything is not permitted. Empirical truth.

David B (suggests trying levitation, if you doubt me)

Columbus
November 27, 2005, 05:42 PM
The way I see it "permitted" is not a word that is applicable to moral issues. It does have some limited usefulness in ethical discussions.

Ethics are the rules by which one lives ones life. Morals are the principles which determine the ethics. "We are all members of the Family of Humanity, and we are all in this together" is a moral I try to live by. "I do not steal from the members of The Family of Humanity" is an ethic I live by. I do this because I believe that we are all better off if we have basic security for our stuff, and I can't have it if people steal, and I want to be part of the solution. It's not that I don't think other people's stuff is cool and would be nice to have. It's not that I think God will whack me for breaking a commandment. It's that I value simple security over the stuff I might acquire by stealing. I also want to grant that security to others as best as I can, so I try to prevent stealing from others. I support law enforcement, and I would do what I could to prevent someone from stealing from someone else. IOW, I would not "permit" stealing if I can help it.

It doesn't matter whether there is a God or not, everything is permitted. Unless we humans decide differently, "permitted" is like "purpose" or "meaning" or "beginning", or "cause", it just depends on what people mean by it. Sometimes people want to ascribe their own uses for these words to a supernatural entity in order to give their own opinions more weight.

Tom

Everything is not permitted. Empirical truth.

David B (suggests trying levitation, if you doubt me)Shut up dufous. We're trying to be deep here:wave:

anthrosciguy
November 27, 2005, 05:57 PM
Everything is not permitted. Empirical truth.

David B (suggests trying levitation, if you doubt me)

Levitation is permitted just as size 0 lycra ski pants on a 200 pounder are permitted. Neither's gonna happen, but they're permitted.

David B
November 27, 2005, 06:07 PM
Levitation is permitted just as size 0 lycra ski pants on a 200 pounder are permitted. Neither's gonna happen, but they're permitted.

Well, if you count zillion cubed to one quantum effects to count, yeah, walking through a wall is permitted.

But apart from that, not permitted.

David B (finds that good enough for him)

anthrosciguy
November 27, 2005, 06:15 PM
Well, if you count zillion cubed to one quantum effects to count, yeah, walking through a wall is permitted.

But apart from that, not permitted.

David B (finds that good enough for him)

I'll let you do it, therefore it's permitted at my place. Possible? That's another thing, isn't it?

Columbus
November 27, 2005, 08:10 PM
I'll let you do it, therefore it's permitted at my place. What makes me find religion useless is that this statement doesn't tell me if you're a theist, an agnostic, or an atheist. It's always true.

The difference between theists and everyone else is that they claim that they are different, without being different in any important way. They each individually claim that God agrees with them in every way that matters. Theists often disagree with each other, while still agreeing that God agrees with them individually.

Sigh,

Tom

Manakin
November 28, 2005, 11:11 AM
Everything is not permitted. Empirical truth.

David B (suggests trying levitation, if you doubt me)


Um...


We will have to understand the implicit qualifier that everything physically possible is permitted.

Yeah. <shrug>


-M

PoodleLovinPessimist
November 28, 2005, 12:50 PM
Thanks Manakin.

OdysseusTheInnkeeper
November 28, 2005, 01:32 PM
if god does exist, anything is permissable and possible. very close to the same if he doesn't

moonwatcher
November 28, 2005, 07:22 PM
If God does not exist, then everything is permitted

I was once quoted this by a theist who considered it a refutation of atheism.

My response: With the man of good will, though everything is permitted him, none need fear.

dancer_rnb
November 29, 2005, 08:37 AM
With God, there are no Bible Thumping Killers.......OOOPS